In Essentials Unity

[John81]

I said "Penty" for the point - could be any other denomination, many teach salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, but may be sprinklers, paedOBaptists, amil, episcopalians whatever. Your colleague is preaching Christ.

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

How many come to salvation with a comprehensive understanding of IFB theology?

Yes, there are some who preach or teach salvation well enough that some come to Christ but then they have many false teachings which is a real shame because it can be so hard to get some true Christians out of these churches.

I was born again while attending an Assemblies of God church with my girlfriend. Thankfully the pastor at that time wasn't preaching/teaching as many others in the Assemblies of God. He did overfocus upon Revelation, the end-times and such, but he did preach proper biblical salvation. As a side note, a year or so later he left for Texas and the new pastor who replaced him was VERY charismatic. This guy put a band on the "stage" and introduces speaking in tongues to the services.

Just for clarity, what are you speaking to when you say "paedOBaptist"?

[Bro Jim]

Infant baptism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaedOBaptist

[John81]

Infant baptism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaedOBaptist

Thank you!

[Invicta]

Numbers 6:1-3, “And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.”

These verses would preclude us from eating fruit cake, Cadbury's fruit and nut, drinking grape juice, vinegar or any other product of the grape. Dooes that apply to us or to the nazarite?

[Crushmaster]

I'm sorry, but you simply cannot use the Bible to say that drinking alcohol is evil.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

[DennisD]

I'm sorry, but you simply cannot use the Bible to say that drinking alcohol is evil.
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

You surely can use the Bible to show the evil of drink or how evil things come about from drinking...yep.

[DennisD]

These verses would preclude us from eating fruit cake, Cadbury's fruit and nut, drinking grape juice, vinegar or any other product of the grape. Dooes that apply to us or to the nazarite?

It says Nazarite above. But, isn't it correct we don't fall under the law concerning specific foods anyway?

If you just take New Testament verses about strong drink, alcoholic drink...it clearly states many certain things to include it will bring shame and humiliation, drinking might cause another to stumble (I think this should be the biggest reason a Christian shouldn't drink), etc.

[Bro Jim]

Bud-dummer never made anybody wiser.

[no name joe]

You surely can use the Bible to show the evil of drink or how evil things come about from drinking...yep.

It does not take the Bible to know that bad things come from the abuse of alcohol, but I do not see at all where its use is entirely prohibited. Drunkeness is wrong. Glutony is wrong. But food in and of itself is not wrong, neither is alcohol.

I entirely understand why some choose not to partake. I can understand some reading Paul as saying not to do anything to make your brother stumble, even if it is permissible, to apply to alcohol. However, I cannot get past that fact that wine was used in the passover meal in the Old Testament. Jesus made wine at a wedding. t the Last Supper, which was a Passover meal, Jesus passed around a cup of wine and dipped bread in wine.

I did not mean to open up this debate here. But this is a good example of the topic. Whether one drinks wine on occassion is not an essential of Christianity. Two people can read the Scripture differently on this point, and can agree to disagree and still be unitied in the love and grace of Christ Jesus.

[Bro Jim]

Bible study will show the difference between "old" and "new" wine. If the Bible says no drunkard would go to Heaven would Christ then send people to Hell, by making a wine that moveth of itself. Study up on fermentation. Vinegar is wine, and it is good for you, too. The KJB has more to say against liquor than for it and when it speaks of its use it is for medicinal purposes only. And that ain't to wash down a pizza. Know there is a difference between the fruit of the vine, and wine. And Jesus used the "fruit of the vine", Matt. 26:29; Mark 14:25; Luke 22:18.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Bro Jim

[DennisD]

It does not take the Bible to know that bad things come from the abuse of alcohol, but I do not see at all where its use is entirely prohibited. Drunkeness is wrong. Glutony is wrong. But food in and of itself is not wrong, neither is alcohol.

I entirely understand why some choose not to partake. I can understand some reading Paul as saying not to do anything to make your brother stumble, even if it is permissible, to apply to alcohol. However, I cannot get past that fact that wine was used in the passover meal in the Old Testament. Jesus made wine at a wedding. t the Last Supper, which was a Passover meal, Jesus passed around a cup of wine and dipped bread in wine.

I did not mean to open up this debate here. But this is a good example of the topic. Whether one drinks wine on occassion is not an essential of Christianity. Two people can read the Scripture differently on this point, and can agree to disagree and still be unitied in the love and grace of Christ Jesus.

I would just ask you give it some extra prayer and study. Fruit of the vine is not alcoholic wine. There are many reasons (straight from the Bible, don't worry about reading the links if you don't want) that show us the wine Jesus made at the wedding was not alcoholic.

Took me a long time to realize I shouldn't be drinking, it didn't come over night. It took me about 4 years to really get a handle on it (I used to think exactly as you do).

[JerryNumbers]

Your right, yet there be many that will not accept that truth. I suppose they like the drink to much to understand what a stumbling block drinking of alcohol beverages can be..

Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Pr 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Sad to say, there be many that are deceived by it.

[coc333]

It does not take the Bible to know that bad things come from the abuse of alcohol, but I do not see at all where its use is entirely prohibited. Drunkeness is wrong. Glutony is wrong. But food in and of itself is not wrong, neither is alcohol.

I entirely understand why some choose not to partake. I can understand some reading Paul as saying not to do anything to make your brother stumble, even if it is permissible, to apply to alcohol. However, I cannot get past that fact that wine was used in the passover meal in the Old Testament. Jesus made wine at a wedding. t the Last Supper, which was a Passover meal, Jesus passed around a cup of wine and dipped bread in wine.

I did not mean to open up this debate here. But this is a good example of the topic. Whether one drinks wine on occassion is not an essential of Christianity. Two people can read the Scripture differently on this point, and can agree to disagree and still be unitied in the love and grace of Christ Jesus.

You admit that drunkeness is wrong, but not the use of alcohol. How much alcohol must one use to reach the point of drunkeness and thus sin? 1 sip? 1 glass? 3 or 4?

Jim, makes a great point about the word "wine."

What one can not do from the Bible is show how alcohol is ok to drink.

[Bro Jim]

If it take 8 beers to get drunk does 1 beer make you 1/8th drunk.

[JerryNumbers]

I may concede to there may be a Pentecostal that doesn't teach a works salvation, I haven't found one yet, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. From my experience little as it may be, all (Pentecostals) I have ever talk to or deeply work with on the subject brought it to, more than grace (evidences), and that you can lose it if you don't work at keeping it. I'm a Baptist, and I believe that salvation is by grace through the Blood of Jesus Christ, and if that is the belief, that one has then okay.

May I add.


Pentecostals teach the oneness doctrine, and it is false teaching at its worse, and they teach that speaking in tongues is proof that one has been baptized in the spirit, are saved, which is also false teaching. And yes, they teach works based salvation and that you can lose your salvation.