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Contemprary Worship in Baptist Churches!


SeanElvis

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It all depends on the heart and how it is structured.

FOr example, in the church I currently attend, the band is off to the side and you can't really see them. The focal point is a wooden cross at the front. The music comes from the heart of the people, many of the songs written by people in our congregation. Music is an element, as is Scripture reading, prayer a sermon and communion.

I've seen 0other churches where it does seem showy, and that is not right. However, I don't think you can judge solely by the style of music. Like I said, and African church would look far different than what we are accustomed to.

I don't know how you can dismiss the Psalms, the drums, cymbals and horns praising God, David dancing in the streets, people thinking converts were drunk on the day of Pentecost.

Help me understand, cause I'm having much trouble. I can understand if you say you must only use Psalms because that is in the text. I can follow that logic, but I cannot follow the logic of hymns written after Biblical times being ok, but songs written today not.


Not all hymns were written during biblical times, they are written strictly upon scripture of the Bible. If you could take the time to read brosmith's books it does give a good insight in to CCM and even outlines a couple of songs. Whether a band is visible or not isn't even the issue here I don't believe.

Surely the others on this board can give their explanation of CCM. And let's not forget the IFB missionaries in Africa starting up IFB churches. I can assure you there wouldn't be any CCM or instruments aside from possibly an acoustic guitar or piano in their church if they are a true IFB church. Edited by Lisa Anne
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It all depends on the heart and how it is structured.

FOr example, in the church I currently attend, the band is off to the side and you can't really see them. The focal point is a wooden cross at the front. The music comes from the heart of the people, many of the songs written by people in our congregation. Music is an element, as is Scripture reading, prayer a sermon and communion. I agree that music is an element of the service, and not the focal point.

I've seen 0other churches where it does seem showy, and that is not right. However, I don't think you can judge solely by the style of music. Like I said, and African church would look far different than what we are accustomed to. I don't know if you've ever been to a church in Africa? I haven't, but we have missionaries there and it really is amazing how the people there change when they get saved. Their music style changes too.

I don't know how you can dismiss the Psalms, the drums, cymbals and horns praising God, David dancing in the streets, people thinking converts were drunk on the day of Pentecost. We have an orchestra in our church. And the music is beautiful. We do not have a praise band or a worship team. We don't play CCM, nor do we sing it. But we have drums and cymbals and horns and strings. :icon_mrgreen: David did not dance in the street in time to music: the Bible states that he was leaping and dancing. Jumping for joy, in today's vernacular. And he wasn't in church. Where is music mentioned at Pentecost? And it wasn't the converts that were accused of being drunk, it was the preachers.

Help me understand, cause I'm having much trouble. I can understand if you say you must only use Psalms because that is in the text. I can follow that logic, but I cannot follow the logic of hymns written after Biblical times being ok, but songs written today not. I would never go so far as to say that songs written today are not acceptable. I've written songs that are quite scriptural (if I do say so myself :icon_mrgreen: ) and I know others who have. CCM isn't just new songs, though. It's a mode of music. There are some CCM songs that aren't bad. Words to some of them are actually quite good. But when a "singer" goes all breathy and starts sounding like a lounge singer (which much of CCM does do...), it stops glorifying God and becomes of the flesh. Folks can give examples of churches all day long, I'm sure, where this has happened. My MIL's church is like this. They overemphasize music - it's not just an element, it is the focus. And their music sounds just like a honkeytonk at times. Or a lounge. The words might be good (some, not all), but the tune and the presentation are not at all spiritual. We were going once a year after my FIL died, just for my MIL's sake. But no more after the last time. The music was used to whip into a frenzy, and a young "spirit-filled" preacher boy came up to give an invitation (now, mind, the pastor had asked my hubby to speak - but the pianist took over the service (because the spirit told him to), made it a music time and then called the young man up for the invitation). HE did all right: and I'm glad I was sitting toward the back. Spittle was flying. It was not a pretty sight, nor was it in any way edifying - not the music, not the invitation.


Actually, Lisa, many IFB don't even use guitars. We don't. That is a preference, completely. Our missionaries in Africa would use something besides a piano if their congregation could play the instrument. Bongo drums and electric guitars would be out, though, because of their associations. If an instrument fits into the categories of stringed (piano, violin, harp, horn or percussion, it's Biblical to use it, within reason. And I say within reason because we all know humans tend to go overboard on things... :biggrin:
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Actually, Lisa, many IFB don't even use guitars. We don't. That is a preference, completely. Our missionaries in Africa would use something besides a piano if their congregation could play the instrument. Bongo drums and electric guitars would be out, though, because of their associations. If an instrument fits into the categories of stringed (piano, violin, harp, horn or percussion, it's Biblical to use it, within reason. And I say within reason because we all know humans tend to go overboard on things... :biggrin:


We don't use guitars. The reason I say that is because a couple missionaries we had visit our church do occasionally. I don't think they use it as a permanent part of their services like we do the piano, but their families have a few songs they sing.
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Actually, Lisa, many IFB don't even use guitars. We don't. That is a preference, completely. Our missionaries in Africa would use something besides a piano if their congregation could play the instrument. Bongo drums and electric guitars would be out, though, because of their associations. If an instrument fits into the categories of stringed (piano, violin, harp, horn or percussion, it's Biblical to use it, within reason. And I say within reason because we all know humans tend to go overboard on things... :biggrin:


Good post, but could you post a link, or links, to some songs with the "breathy" style you are talking about because I really don't know what that means. :icon_mrgreen: Not sure about the "lounge" singer meaning either, so maybe a link for something like that if you can. When I think of "lounge" music for some reason I think of Dean Martin. :coffee2:
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Good post, but could you post a link, or links, to some songs with the "breathy" style you are talking about because I really don't know what that means. :icon_mrgreen: Not sure about the "lounge" singer meaning either, so maybe a link for something like that if you can. When I think of "lounge" music for some reason I think of Dean Martin. :coffee2:


I always think of pop/country artists who do covers of Christmas song/hymns. That can be pretty awful. I read someone once talk about how Jessica Simpson recorded O, Holy Night. Yeaaaaah, not good. But that's more of an example of an old hymn being reproduced, not so much a CCM style song. I wouldn't even know where to search for one of those to be honest.
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I dislike how some will shred very good hymns making them more modern like. Seems many of them are trying their best to show off their talents instead of bringing glory where it belongs.


:amen: I feel the same way about one secular song too, our national anthem. Why can't folks just sing the song nicely and respectfully rather than trying to impress everyone?

Of course when it comes to hymns they should be sung for the glory of God and not to gain attention and praise for the singer.
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John, by breathy (and lounge), I mean the singers who sound like they are out of breath or seducing the listeners. Some call those "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. Chris Tomlin is an example of what I mean. He's got a great voice, and the extra verse he wrote to Amazing Grace was good, but the way he sings it is what I don't care for. The voice breaks and almost sounds like it's cooing at points (not like a dove, but like a lover singing a song). I realize that we are to love Christ with all our hearts, but I do not believe that the singers who sound like they are trying to seduce people glorify God in that way. Perhaps they intend to do that, but they've adopted a worldly style when they do sing.

Again, I think he's got a very good voice. But the breathy, breaky presentation is what I don't like. Not a lot different from pop stars...

Dino was definitely a lounge type singer, but lounge singers were also similar to the breathy breaky sound.
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Thank you for the explanation. Myself, I wouldn't call the Chris Tomil song as "breathy", but more of a soft reverential tone. Of couse, that could be our differences in perception. I've heard a lot of singers (in and out of churches) who sing Amazing Grace in similar style.

Looking around for something I thought might be "breathy" I came across something by Kari Jobe that I thought you may have been referring to but I don't know how to get these things to imbed right. If you want, you can look up Kari Jobe and listen to a bit of a song or two of hers and see what you think. Myself, her way of singing those songs, I don't care for.

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Thank you for the explanation. Myself, I wouldn't call the Chris Tomil song as "breathy", but more of a soft reverential tone. Of couse, that could be our differences in perception. I've heard a lot of singers (in and out of churches) who sing Amazing Grace in similar style.

Looking around for something I thought might be "breathy" I came across something by Kari Jobe that I thought you may have been referring to but I don't know how to get these things to imbed right. If you want, you can look up Kari Jobe and listen to a bit of a song or two of hers and see what you think. Myself, her way of singing those songs, I don't care for.

Yes, she is definitely breathy. Chris has some of that, but he is more the breaky kind (I personally don't consider it reverential...I've also heard that in some churches, and usually those are the people who are singing for show - I remember one man who sang like that all the while he was having an affair with his wife's best friend...). Where his voice breaks (Kari's does too, at times). In a manner much like Christina Aguilar and other pop artists. Neither of them are distinct from the worldly pop music in anything except the words. And sometimes not even the words...
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Well, I agree that music in church should never be done in a manner that diverts attention away from Christ.

I can totally understand how some musical styles do not speak to some individuals, and why a church wants to retain a traditional type service because that is how their people are best ushered into worship. However, what I do not agree with, and cannot understand, is why some people deem certain styles of music "bad" and others "good." I also don't unerstand what is classified as "CCM." I assume that means anything played over the radio on Christian Music radio stations, and I can agree that many of those songs are an artistic expression of one's faith and not suitable for corporate worship.. However, I cannot denounce that style of music as bad, because I personally know some music artists who are Christian (I went to college with a number of folks that are "CCM" artists), and without exception, they are devoted Christians who seek to glorify God in their music. That does not mean their music is always intended for corporate worship, in fact, most of the time it is not. It is intended as a mode to express their thoughts and feelings about what God is doing in their lives.

Back to corporate worship, there are many songs, hymns, praise songs, psalms, etc. suitable for corporate worship. They style of the music should be left to the people in that congregation. A church should not adopt a style of music to attract people. That is when music becomes the focal point, and I can agree that many churches make this mistake. I was a part of one that did so, and it did not work, but was divisive. However, the church I am a part of now, they have a very modern style of music, though it is done in a way to draw people into worsship, it is born out of the hearts of people as they use their talents to pour their hearts back to God in response to what he has done for us. I could venture to say that many on this board would not approve, as there is a full drum set, accoustic guitar, bass guitar, piano, saxaphone, and sometimes an electric guitar. Sometimes bongo drums are substituted for the full drums. But what I can say is that attention is not drawn to musicians. They lead worship, yes, but they not the focal point. The Holy Spirit is undoubtedly present during our worship services: in the time of music, in the time of Scripture reading, during the message, and during communion. In my previous church, they had a full orchestra and sanctuary choir. I could say the same about that church, though the style was very different.

Worship is brining ourselves before God, pouring our hearts out to Him, openning our Hearts to HIm, and lifting up the name of Christ. People offer what they have. Music has always been incorporated into worship. Music is so beautiful because God created the notes and sounds, and as people, we can arrange and put it together in ways and combine with words in ways that truly express what is in our hearts. The great Hymn writers did this in their days. David did it in penning the Psalms. John Wesley, Issac Watts, Martin Luther, Fannie Crosby, John Newton, and countless others have done it throughout the centuries as they have penned the words to great hymns and put them to music. There are wonderful songwriters doing the same today, placing old words to new tunes and arrangments, etc.

This may be a point I just have to agree to disagree on, and that is fine. I am not promoting one way over another, nor am I trying to be argumentative. I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I just don't understand how a person pouring out their heart in worship through music, no matter what style, is a bad thing.

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I dislike how some will shred very good hymns making them more modern like. Seems many of them are trying their best to show off their talents instead of bringing glory where it belongs.


Or could they not be using the gifts God has given to them to help build up and edify the church?
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Or could they not be using the gifts God has given to them to help build up and edify the church?


No, they take a perfectly good hymn and ruin it showing off their singing skills.

If they want to sing songs in such a manner, write their own songs, do not chop someone else's songs to pieces.
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No, they take a perfectly good hymn and ruin it showing off their singing skills.

If they want to sing songs in such a manner, write their own songs, do not chop someone else's songs to pieces.


Yes, such things should not take place, especially inside a church. The songs should be sung for the glory of God. The one singing shouldn't turn into a "performer" putting on a show. Unfortunately, many churches go for this these days. Pentacostal churches and many black churches are really big on this. One of the quickest ways to "become somebody" in the church is to be able to put on a good singing performance. Those who do become celebrities within that church and sometimes go on to become celebrities among similar churches as they "tour" from church to church performing.

In these cases, the attention, focus and praise is upon the performer.

All of the shouting for the performer and wild clapping for their great show is inappropriate in a church.
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