Let's talk about Christmas!

[John81]

Several years ago, there was an American woman being interviewed on our local radio station. She was asked whey Americans had two festivals so close together, she said that most Christians, especially in New England, did not celebrate Christmas till the late 1800s, they considered it a papish trivia. It was only when many irish and Italian Catholic immigrants came, that it began to be a widelt celebrated festival.

I did some research on a few baptist Churches in this area including this one in Canterbury. http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=25&t=12615 I borrowed copies of the minutes from 1845. Christmas was not mentioned at all. Services are held as usual on 25 Dec. They even held a members business meeting once on 25 Dec. From the main road, this chapel looks like a turrett in the city wall. It is almost in the shadow of the cathedral. Other Baptist churches never mention Christmas in their minutes.

Preacher, Samuel Eyles Pierce, in his memoire only mentions Christmas once and that is Christmas eve. He said that in 1808, after walking some miles into London he caught the stage coach to Maidstone, walked 20 miles or so to Faversham, preached twice the next day, and three times the following day, it being the Lords day, then walked another 10 miles to Canterbury, to spend the new year.

Should Christians celebrate Christmas?
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/xmas/celeb.htm

It's easy to believe that how we do so many things today is how most did it at other times too. Actually looking into such things and seeing how our ancestors and others viewed things and dealt with them can be very interesting and enlightening.

It might be interesting to see and hear the reaction of some of those old-time pastors if they were to somehow find themselves in the midst of one of our churches in our day around the 25th of December.

[Brother Rick]

I would expect wishes like this from satanists like Schworer, but I thought you were a Christian. Shame.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[amblivion]

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Nathaniel]

I would expect wishes like this from satanists like Schworer, but I thought you were a Christian. Shame.

Coop:
Ro 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Ro 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

That being said I don't think this is a free choice of any holiday you want. To put it more simply celebrating Halloween would not be regarding to the Lord. (at the very least in my opinion). As it would be going against his word

De 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
De 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

It's easy to believe that how we do so many things today is how most did it at other times too. Actually looking into such things and seeing how our ancestors and others viewed things and dealt with them can be very interesting and enlightening.

It might be interesting to see and hear the reaction of some of those old-time pastors if they were to somehow find themselves in the midst of one of our churches in our day around the 25th of December.

It might be interesting to see and hear the reaction of some of those old-time pastors if they were to somehow find themselves in the midst of one of our churches in our day around the 25th of December. "

We should always Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21 )
Most of the Christmas traditions and even the name itself are linked with Mystery Babylon, paganism and, brought eventually into Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church (RCC).

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

These verses in Revalation seem eerily familiar to at the very least the modern Christmas. Some stores get around 50% and maybe more of their annual profits from the last 3 months of the year!

Re 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ga 4:10 Ye OBserve days, and months, and times, and years.
Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

2Ch 33:17 Nevertheless the people did sacrifice still in the high places, yet unto the LORD their God only.
In a way Christmas is like a High place, practically everything if not all things used in the celebration is linked to the pagan worship in December, even the date which even before Christ's birth was celebrated as the the Baal, Saturn, and other pagan god's birthdays with root in Mystery Babylon. If it does happen to be Christ's birthday there is no reason to be dismayed. As God made all days but, it is very doubtful. Pope Julius of the RCC announced that Christ's Birth was to be celebrated on December 25th. His rationale at that time was to make it easier for for pagans' to convert to Catholicism. He also incorporated many pagan customs from their holidays into Christmas. Such as Holly berries, Mistletoe, Wreaths, Yule-logs, Evergreens, and much more.

Le 10:1 ¶ And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. (We must ask ourselves is Christmas truly honoring the Lord or are we offering a strange fire?)

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

This is a summary of why i do not celebrate Christmas, I studied it for quite awhile and collected a lot data about it. I hope i do not offend anyone as that is not my intention. I wasn't going to post anything but I felt a pull to post it, so I did. Hopefully this will be of use to someone. Edited December 2, 2010 by Nathaniel

[irishman]

Coop:
Ro 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Ro 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

That being said I don't think this is a free choice of any holiday you want. To put it more simply celebrating Halloween would not be regarding to the Lord. (at the very least in my opinion). As it would be going against his word

De 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
De 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.



It might be interesting to see and hear the reaction of some of those old-time pastors if they were to somehow find themselves in the midst of one of our churches in our day around the 25th of December. "

We should always Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21 )
Most of the Christmas traditions and even the name itself are linked with Mystery Babylon, paganism and, brought eventually into Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church (RCC).

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

These verses in Revalation seem eerily familiar to at the very least the modern Christmas. Some stores get around 50% and maybe more of their annual profits from the last 3 months of the year!

Re 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ga 4:10 Ye OBserve days, and months, and times, and years.
Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

2Ch 33:17 Nevertheless the people did sacrifice still in the high places, yet unto the LORD their God only.
In a way Christmas is like a High place, practically everything if not all things used in the celebration is linked to the pagan worship in December, even the date which even before Christ's birth was celebrated as the the Baal, Saturn, and other pagan god's birthdays with root in Mystery Babylon. If it does happen to be Christ's birthday there is no reason to be dismayed. As God made all days but, it is very doubtful. Pope Julius of the RCC announced that Christ's Birth was to be celebrated on December 25th. His rationale at that time was to make it easier for for pagans' to convert to Catholicism. He also incorporated many pagan customs from their holidays into Christmas. Such as Holly berries, Mistletoe, Wreaths, Yule-logs, Evergreens, and much more.

Le 10:1 ¶ And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. (We must ask ourselves is Christmas truly honoring the Lord or are we offering a strange fire?)

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

This is a summary of why i do not celebrate Christmas, I studied it for quite awhile and collected a lot data about it. I hope i do not offend anyone as that is not my intention. I wasn't going to post anything but I felt a pull to post it, so I did. Hopefully this will be of use to someone.

It's cheaper not to celebrate Christmas too! Your kids must love it!

Anyway, as for the words "Merry Christmas" being heathen, you have been sold a wooden nickel. The Lord looks on the heart, and not the outward appearance. if it is done to the glory of God (as it should be) then the Lord is glorified in it; if it is done by unbelievers because of tradition, or whatever, it has no real meaning, and is therefore pagan. 1 Cor. 10:31
Let me give an example: If I say "Oh my God", I am recognizing the Lord as He is, but when a pagan says it, it becomes blasphemous! same words, but different spirit, because of the relationship, not the act! Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."


As for studying, that does not qualify you very much really, we often study things out with our pre-conceived viewpoint. The material we use; the people to whom we refer almost always agree with us and promote one side over the other. We all do it, to some extent, unfortunately.

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee".
Prov. 23:7 Edited December 2, 2010 by irishman

[John81]

It's cheaper not to celebrate Christmas too! Your kids must ove it!

Anyway, as for the words "Merry Christmas" being heathen, you have been sold a wooden nickel. The Lord looks on the heart, and not the outward appearance. if it is done to the glory of God (as it should be) then the Lord is glorified in it; if it is done by unbelievers because of tradition, or whatever, it has no real meaning, and is therefore pagan.
Let me give an example: If I say "Oh my God", I am recognizing the Lord as He is, but when a pagan says it, it becomes blasphemous! same words, but different spirit, because of the relationship, not the act!

As for studying, that does not qualify you very much really, we often study things out with our pre-conceived viewpoint. The material we use; the people to whom we refer almost always agree with us and promote one side over the other. We all do it, to some extent, unfortunately.

I understand your meaning, but in America how are Christians to bring glory to God participating in Christmas while also avoiding the appearance of evil and maintaining separation?

Good point about "Oh my God". I've noticed there for a time that phrase was in great use among the general population and contemporary TV programs. I'm not sure why, but it seems that trend has turned. Possibly because even in using God wrongly, there is yet an acknowledgement of God.

True enough, if we study something to prove what we already believe or think, then it's very easy to find such "proof". However, if we are truly studying something out, we determine to let the facts speak for themselves as we seek the truth, not what we already believe or think. This is how I finally came to the truth with regards to issues such as healing, which we know folks like Copeland, Hagin and others proclaim in one manner, while Spurgeon, Rice and others say differently. I would have loved to discover we can expect and receive instant, full healing of whatever afflicted us and possibly even loved ones, but setting that aside, I was more interested in the truth and the truth of Scripture doesn't support the teachings of those who proclaim "name it and claim it healing" or that if our faith is strong enough we will be healed of everything.

Side note here: while flipping channels early this year or perhaps last year, I came across the Copeland's show on a Christian channel. Gloria Copeland was talking at the time and as she prepared to read something from her Bible she put on a pair of glasses. I began to wonder about this and then she said something to the effect that older eyes naturally work less well so this isn't something one prays for healing about and that wearing glasses is just a sign of age and not a sign of having a condition one could be healed of.

What a convenient stance!

[HappyChristian]

Whether or not someone celebrates Christmas must be left up to them. I know a number of people who do not celebrate it at all. I know others who celebrate it but will not have a tree in their home (one particular person was exposed as hypocritical in requiring me to teach my class that Christmas trees are bad...while his daughter had one in her bedroom at his home [she was about 14 at the time, so definitely under his rule]). The celebrating of any day or not does not make one person more spiritual than another. Every Christian needs to watch out for that old bugbear: pride. The attitude that "I'm better because I don't..." or "I'm better because I do..." is sometimes hard to fight! (and, please, this is NOT directed at anyone in particular - it's just a general statement with a general truth).

I, too, have studied out the pagan roots with Christmas, Easter, etc. And at one time I determined I wouldn't celebrate either. But...if I were consistent with that, I would have to rename the days of the week and the months of the year. I would have to not even celebrate Thanksgiving, because harvest festivals were a common practice throughout the world during the time of the pilgrims (and before): usually praising the different harvest god for each country... If a person, however, is convicted that celebrating the birth of Christ on Dec. 25 is wrong, then they must not do it. Mine was not conviction...and, even had it been, once I got married, the decision would have been my hubby's, not mine (although he would have weighed my thoughts carefully).

How do we celebrate it and yet maintain a separation from the world? Well, for starters, we put Christ where He belongs during that time: first.
~ extra monetary gifts to the church at this time of year
~ teaching our kids by word and deed that Christ is more important than gifts - No, not by not giving them any gifts, but by explaining to them about the greatest Gift of all....(and by not overloading them with gifts!!)
~ when our son was younger, my hubby had each of us wrap a "gift" we were giving to the Lord...whether it was tangible or something written down. Before opening anything else, we opened our gifts to the Lord and explained them to each other.
~ many churches have Christmas programs where the public comes and hears the gospel. We have two: a music night (this coming Tuesday), where many hymns are sung and explained, the gospel being presented VERY clearly to all who come (and there are a great many who won't step foot inside our church otherwise); and our Christmas program on Christmas Sunday. Third-sixth grade kids present a 5 or so minute program about Christ...and a large number of proud (unsaved) parents and grandparents attend. They hear the gospel in the program, and then in the sermon to follow.
~ by being vocal as to what Christmas is. I'm hampered somewhat by recent new policies enacted at work, but right now am wearing a pin that says "Jesus is the Heart of the Season." When asked, I can discuss it...and believe me, I am asked. Even if not, anyone who sees me knows where I stand with Christmas.
~ by not focusing just on the gift giving. We give gifts - and we love choosing just the right thing for each other (just like the books I just ordered for my guys, eh, Rick? ). We get a couple of "wanted" gifts, and a couple of "needed"...and always something spiritual and/or something that will help us as we minister to others for Christ.

This year, Christmas falls on Saturday. We have a nursing home service every Saturday morning. Where will we be Christmas morning? At the nursing home, just like always. Why? Because we love the Lord and we love those people...and being there on Christmas morning will show them even more that we do (they are always so surprised when we "give up" time on holidays to come and see them - especially since many of their families don't even bother to come on a holiday....). On the 18th, we will have an extra service there - a music program that evening, where many Christmas songs will be sung, and my hubby will bring a message.

Oh, there's a myriad of ways for Christians to show the world that we look at and celebrate Christmas differently!!!

Irishman, I agree with your take on "Oh, my God." I have even at times said to people who say that, "oh, is He yours also?" Or "oh, are you praying?" Of course they are not! I do think, though (and I'm sure you didn't mean otherwise) that Christians can misuse this phrase - it's such a common thing now that we hear it everywhere (it's even shortened to just the initials for "easier" swearing) that sometimes a Christian will say it not as a prayer but as an exclamatory...which is cursing.

John - the Copeland story doesn't surprise me...and it is actually amusing! You're right, it is convenient for them. Kinda like Oral ROBerts building that hospital...but then, his answer was always that if someone weren't healed, it was lack of faith on the ill person's part!

[Brother Rick]

We give gifts - and we love choosing just the right thing for each other (just like the books I just ordered for my guys, eh, Rick? ).

Hmmmmm..... books, yes, books make a great gifts this time of year.... Edited December 2, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[amblivion]

This year our family has decided to do something different for Christmas. We are all grown up and out of the house now. To save money we decided to draw a name out of a hat. This is the person we would buy a Christmas gift for. We then made a list of gifts we would like and facebooked them to eachother. We won't know until Christmas day who had us. With the money we are saving by only buying on person a gift we have decided to help people in Asia. Now of course everyone is spoiling little Aiden who is 4 months old and the only baby in the family.

[HappyChristian]

This year our family has decided to do something different for Christmas. We are all grown up and out of the house now. To save money we decided to draw a name out of a hat. This is the person we would buy a Christmas gift for. We then made a list of gifts we would like and facebooked them to eachother. We won't know until Christmas day who had us. With the money we are saving by only buying on person a gift we have decided to help people in Asia. Now of course everyone is spoiling little Aiden who is 4 months old and the only baby in the family.

That sounds like a good idea. And, naturally the baby would be spoiled.

[Nathaniel]

HappyChristian: It is up to each person to decide. I was just trying to explain why I don't which could help people understand why some may not. You are wonderful with words, I would love to have that, maybe someday with experience I will. As i prOBably offended some which truly wasn't my intention. I'm still poor at communicating what i am trying to say. I was trying to mostly make a point that Don't judge someone based on what they do or do not celebrate. I don't with the exception of Halloween. It is horrible to have someone try and push you one way, I know because my Grandmother tries almost every time I've seen her lately and gets offended when I still feel convicted not to celebrate it. I was trying to say be fully convinced if you do decide to celebrate. I'm still weak minded about a lot of things, I'm doing my best one step at a time and have loads to work and decide on prOBably in areas I need to apply this myself such as with my other post about thou should not steal. I need to be fully convinced one way or not do it at all. Posting the message i did last night made me think of that. Perhaps that was God's plan with regard to me posting that. I hold much respect for you all, I hope i didn't offend anyone I'm sorry if i did. I prOBably should have kept quiet as I'm still not knowledgeable about a lot of things.

[HappyChristian]

HappyChristian: It is up to each person to decide. I was just trying to explain why I don't which could help people understand why some may not. You are wonderful with words, I would love to have that, maybe someday with experience I will. As i prOBably offended some which truly wasn't my intention. I'm still poor at communicating what i am trying to say. I was trying to mostly make a point that Don't judge someone based on what they do or do not celebrate. I don't with the exception of Halloween. It is horrible to have someone try and push you one way, I know because my Grandmother tries almost every time I've seen her lately and gets offended when I still feel convicted not to celebrate it. I was trying to say be fully convinced if you do decide to celebrate. I'm still weak minded about a lot of things, I'm doing my best one step at a time and have loads to work and decide on prOBably in areas I need to apply this myself such as with my other post about thou should not steal. I need to be fully convinced one way or not do it at all. Posting the message i did last night made me think of that. Perhaps that was God's plan with regard to me posting that. I hold much respect for you all, I hope i didn't offend anyone I'm sorry if i did. I prOBably should have kept quiet as I'm still not knowledgeable about a lot of things.

Oh, Nathaniel, I was not rebuking you in any way. In fact, my first statement in my last post (Whether or not someone celebrates Christmas must be left up to them) was actually in support of your decision. The explanation of my studies, etc, was my story - not intending to belittle you or make you feel in the wrong. I absolutely do not think you are wrong: you must be persuaded in your own mind as to how your house will be run (as any man must be)! I don't think anyone was offended - I certainly was not.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter - one of the blessings of this forum is the difference that individual Christians bring to discussions. Please do not keep quiet about things! One way we can help each other here is to bring things up for discussion. There will always be disagreement, until we reach Heaven. But the discussion can be very enlightening for everyone.

[Nathaniel]

Oops, I'm sorry, i too was supporting you that it is up too everyone to decide, I didn't word my thoughts correctly in that post, it should have been like this.

I agree with HappyChristian, It is up to each person to decide. I was just trying to explain why I don't which could help people understand why some may not. She is wonderful with words, I would love to have that, maybe someday with experience I will. As i prOBably offended some which truly wasn't my intention. I'm still poor at communicating what i am trying to say. I was trying to mostly make a point that Don't judge someone based on what they do or do not celebrate. I don't with the exception of Halloween. It is horrible to have someone try and push you one way, I know because my Grandmother tries almost every time I've seen her lately and gets offended when I still feel convicted not to celebrate it. I was trying to say be fully convinced if you do decide to celebrate. I'm still weak minded about a lot of things, I'm doing my best one step at a time and have loads to work and decide on prOBably in areas I need to apply this myself such as with my other post about thou should not steal. I need to be fully convinced one way or not do it at all. Posting the message i did last night made me think of that. Perhaps that was God's plan with regard to me posting that. I hold much respect for you all, I hope i didn't offend anyone I'm sorry if i did. I prOBably should have kept quiet as I'm still not knowledgeable about a lot of things.