Why do we allow women to sing in church

[rancher824]

Rancher,
Your proposal appears out of context. I wouldn’t recommend making a doctrine out of what you’ve proposed.

silence
Strong’s 2271
1) quietness
a) description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others
fem. Of 2272, stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language
2) silence
and derived from:
Strong’s 2272
1) quiet, tranquil

der. Of the base of 1476 and 2192; prop. keeping one’s seat (sedentary); i.e. (by impl.) still (undisturbed, undisturbing):- peaceable, quiet.

1476 to sit, sedentary, immovable, settled, stedfast
2192 to hold

This has nothing to do with singing or music but everything to do with conduct and attitude while under instruction for learning while in the assembly of the church. It may speak to not bursting out in song while under instruction. I believe the context of the entire chapter would agree; beginning with conduct and attitude toward government, why we must conduct ourselves thus, and finally how we should conduct ourselves in the assembly of believers.

1: quietness
2: silence
other 1: quiet

Your definition is full of the same words. Quiet and silent. Yes it mentions keeping ones seat. What does that tell us? The lady up front singing a special is neither quiet nor keeping her seat. So we circle back around to the clear verses that say for a women to be silent.

[rancher824]

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti 2:11,12)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak: but they are commanded to be under OBedience, as also says the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1Co 14:34,35)


I don't think anyone's disputing that silent means silent, but when are women to be silent? It seems to me that the context of both passages above is women speaking when they should be learning. I don't see how this applies to women participating in congregational singing or singing specials (as long as they're not leading men in song).

My church is a very solid King James bible believing church. The women sing. I wonder at what point these types of discussions are unhealthy, promoting discord in good churches. Just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts?

But what is the context of our whole church service? is it not a combination of worship and learning. As I said in another post (after you posted so I am not saying you should have seen it) if a song has no message, it should not be sang in the church. If it has a message, the men are the ones to carry the message.

[1Timothy115]

1: quietness
2: silence
other 1: quiet

Your definition is full of the same words. Quiet and silent. Yes it mentions keeping ones seat. What does that tell us? The lady up front singing a special is neither quiet nor keeping her seat. So we circle back around to the clear verses that say for a women to be silent.

Sure the definitions are full of quietness and silent but the meaning is attitude and conduct while teaching and learning are occuring. Singing from the congregation is praise of the only deserving God and under the leadership of the pastor or his assistants it is acceptable. However, I don’t believe you can make a case for women song leaders from this antithesis.

[Crushmaster]

............
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

[LindaR]

Our little church has no choir so all our singing is congregational. Our worship leader is a man, and his wife plays the piano. I don't see anything in Scripture against women singing in church, either with the congregation or in a choir. Also, there are many gospel singing groups with women (I'm not speaking of the CCM groups)and many of those groups sing in churches. We have several women at our church who sing specials...sometimes solo and sometimes with their husbands.

From what I am reading on this thread, some would prefer that the women come to church remaining totally silent on entering and remaining silent until they walk out the church doors. That would be likened to either gagging them or taping their mouths shut for 2-3 hours. I don't think that is what is meant by "let your women keep silence in the church" or "let the women learn silence". I agree with 1Tim115 about this being attitude and conduct rather than a "gag order"!

There are many Scriptures (especially in the Psalms) where it says that we are to make a joyful noise unto the Lord...in Ephesians 5:19 it says "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" These verses would not exclude women...everybody should participate in the worship of the Lord in song at church.

My

[rancher824]

Our little church has no choir so all our singing is congregational. Our worship leader is a man, and his wife plays the piano. I don't see anything in Scripture against women singing in church, either with the congregation or in a choir. Also, there are many gospel singing groups with women (I'm not speaking of the CCM groups)and many of those groups sing in churches. We have several women at our church who sing specials...sometimes solo and sometimes with their husbands.

From what I am reading on this thread, some would prefer that the women come to church remaining totally silent on entering and remaining silent until they walk out the church doors. That would be likened to either gagging them or taping their mouths shut for 2-3 hours. I don't think that is what is meant by "let your women keep silence in the church" or "let the women learn silence". I agree with 1Tim115 about this being attitude and conduct rather than a "gag order"!

There are many Scriptures (especially in the Psalms) where it says that we are to make a joyful noise unto the Lord...in Ephesians 5:19 it says "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" These verses would not exclude women...everybody should participate in the worship of the Lord in song at church.

My

In Eph 5:19 you will notice it says to yourselves and in your heart. God hears our worship without the voice. He does not need the women to sing out loud in the church to feel they are worshiping him.

[rancher824]

............
God bless,
Joel ><>.
2 Chronicles 7:14.

Chime in, what are your thoughts??? I am not sure what your emoticons mean. Am I coming across crazy, or does this line up with scripture?

[Covenanter]

Am I coming across crazy, or does this line up with scripture?

You are coming across as crazy.

Do these verses exclude our sisters in Christ?

Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
see:
Mat 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Psa 96:1 ¶ O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.

Psa 148:11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:
12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:
13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory [is] above the earth and heaven.
14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; [even] of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

When Paul calls on the Law for support, he does not quote. We can therefore refer to the OT to see whether the command to silence forbids congregational singing. IMHO, I believe the command to praise the name of the LORD includes congregational worship.

1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under OBedience, as also saith the law.

Rancher, have you put this question to your elders?

Try telling your women they are excluded from joining in Psalm 100.
Metrical version:
All people that on earth do dwell
sing to the LORD with cheerful voice...

Edited November 10, 2010 by Covenanter

[Annie]

You are coming across as crazy.

Agreed. In no way does a woman's participation in congregational or choir singing usurp her man's authority, or affect her ability to learn, or place her in a "teaching" role. Remaining "silent" in this passage doesn't have anything to do with "noise level"...like "no talking, playing instruments, sneezing, whispering, singing, etc." The word silence is used in the context of educational activity in the church. It is found in a passage dealing with how order should be kept in the church. Women (who are naturally more emotional/talkative than men, and more readily share opinions) should not speak out of turn during the preaching of the Word in church. Rather, they should sit quietly and seek to learn from the one who is teaching. They should accept their role as submissive hearers, and not usurp the leadership by speaking out of turn or by taking charge of discussions.

Regarding singing...I would argue that singing (and playing instruments) is a vital part of LEARNING to worship God (at least according to the verses posted above). So, a woman is actually learning more about how to worship as she sings/plays. In the case of "special music," the message of the song should indeed reflect what is being taught in that church...so, really, it isn't strictly "teaching," but a repetition of (and really an indication of submission to) what is already being taught by the church leaders. It is a reiteration of truth, given with the pastor's blessing, under his authority, in submission to his teachings. The only time a woman singing a solo would be out of line is when the message of the song conflicts with the teachings of the church...She would then indeed be "teaching," in that she would be bringing new (not to mention unbiblical) information into the church body. I would say that most of the songs I've heard women sing as solos are not in the "teaching" category at all, but more in the "testimonial/praise" category. They speak of "what God has done for me" or "why I am thankful."

No one has yet answered the question about how a woman can prophesy silently. Paul says that women who pray and prophesy with heads uncovered dishonor their heads. I think this is a key point that shows that "silence" has nothing to do with "noise level" in the context of the epistles dealing with church activity.

[1Timothy115]

Chime in, what are your thoughts??? I am not sure what your emoticons mean. Am I coming across crazy, or does this line up with scripture?

Rancher, you go ahead and tell your wife she can't sing along with the rest of us. I won't break fellowship over it but, your wife...I'm not so sure what she might break. Edited November 10, 2010 by 1Tim115

[Anon]

Okay so I asked my husband about this and he says the context is speaking in tongues and preaching. Its dealing with sermons being preached and then being interpreted. (Read the entire chapter) Its not dealing with praising God or testifying...but it is talking about leading men or being involved in the preaching.

Otherwise, he says, women would not even be allowed to say "Hello" in church.... he says the context in this passage is very important.

In our church, the women sing and testify (if its time for testimonies). They also vote silently. They do not speak in business meetings (mostly because when we first got here, women were totally leading the meetings and he had to put a stop to it...plus, business meetings are a form of church leadership) and they do not lead adult choirs or music, and of course they do not preach or speak during the preaching. They also teach children's classes. There's plenty for women to do in church!

[Lisa Anne]

You are coming across as crazy.

Yeaaaaah.

I do really want to know how your church handles these things. You avoided my question asked previously. Maybe then we all will have a better understanding of where you are coming from in this topic you brought up. You really seem like you want to get everyone riled up and argue (which doesn't seem to be working, everyone seems in agreement here but you) by beating everyone's statement up with more prOBing questions that aren't really doing anything but rewording the same question over and over. Edited November 11, 2010 by Lisa Anne

[trc123]

Okay so I asked my husband about this and he says the context is speaking in tongues and preaching. Its dealing with sermons being preached and then being interpreted. (Read the entire chapter) Its not dealing with praising God or testifying...but it is talking about leading men or being involved in the preaching.

Otherwise, he says, women would not even be allowed to say "Hello" in church.... he says the context in this passage is very important.

In our church, the women sing and testify (if its time for testimonies). They also vote silently. They do not speak in business meetings (mostly because when we first got here, women were totally leading the meetings and he had to put a stop to it...plus, business meetings are a form of church leadership) and they do not lead adult choirs or music, and of course they do not preach or speak during the preaching. They also teach children's classes. There's plenty for women to do in church!

So you'd say the context isn't a prohibition about women leading the choir or singing in church, but about leading men in spiritual matters and preaching?

[rancher824]

I would like to say I am sorry to all those who are upset with me. I know I have been sounding much like a Thomas Cooper. This has been a experiment of a sort. I told HappyChristian at the beginning what was going on. I have noticed on this board, as well as in life, many that take the scripture out of context and twist it to say what they want it to. And no matter how we try, they will not look at it with open eyes. I guess we all fall into this group at times, but some are worse than others. I chose these verses and this topic because the verses are very often taken for other places they do not belong. There have been many times I have read that women should not work, (even if single or no children in the home) or esp be in politics, and these are the verses they run to as proof. But that is not what they are saying. They are talking of preaching and teaching IN THE CHURCH. They are not about every day life. But if we want to try and use them for things outside the leadership of the church, we put ourselves into a place we would have to accept that women should not speak or sing in front of men. There was a topic not long ago about the American revolution, trying to prove it was unbiblical for the colonists to declare independence. But with the logic used in that topic we would have to say women cannot sing!! But that is not what the Bible is saying. Again, I would like to say I am sorry to anyone that I got to upset. I think many gave great answers. As to the questions being over and over, that is something we run up on with those who want to push crazy doctrine. And yes I agree I was sounding crazy!!!!!

[1Timothy115]

I would like to say I am sorry to all those who are upset with me. I know I have been sounding much like a Thomas Cooper. This has been a experiment of a sort. I told HappyChristian at the beginning what was going on. I have noticed on this board, as well as in life, many that take the scripture out of context and twist it to say what they want it to. And no matter how we try, they will not look at it with open eyes. I guess we all fall into this group at times, but some are worse than others. I chose these verses and this topic because the verses are very often taken for other places they do not belong. There have been many times I have read that women should not work, (even if single or no children in the home) or esp be in politics, and these are the verses they run to as proof. But that is not what they are saying. They are talking of preaching and teaching IN THE CHURCH. They are not about every day life. But if we want to try and use them for things outside the leadership of the church, we put ourselves into a place we would have to accept that women should not speak or sing in front of men. There was a topic not long ago about the American revolution, trying to prove it was unbiblical for the colonists to declare independence. But with the logic used in that topic we would have to say women cannot sing!! But that is not what the Bible is saying. Again, I would like to say I am sorry to anyone that I got to upset. I think many gave great answers. As to the questions being over and over, that is something we run up on with those who want to push crazy doctrine. And yes I agree I was sounding crazy!!!!!

I told you I wouldn't break fellowship...just advise you to duck your wife's pots and pans

[rancher824]

I told you I wouldn't break fellowship...just advise you to duck your wife's pots and pans

Yes I got a good chuckle out of that . We live in the country, and so I might be lucky if pots and pans were the worst thing

[Anon]

So you'd say the context isn't a prohibition about women leading the choir or singing in church, but about leading men in spiritual matters and preaching?

Well....in choir, usually the leader tells people what to sing and how to sing it...that's leadership. You can't get around the fact that being in front of a group and "leading singing" or "leading the choir" is leadership???? And the context is dealing with leadership in church.....

Of course I suppose if your (hypothetical) church has rock concerts that's not spiritual leadership so whoever wants to lead it, can...haha.

[John81]

I would like to say I am sorry to all those who are upset with me. I know I have been sounding much like a Thomas Cooper. This has been a experiment of a sort. I told HappyChristian at the beginning what was going on. I have noticed on this board, as well as in life, many that take the scripture out of context and twist it to say what they want it to. And no matter how we try, they will not look at it with open eyes. I guess we all fall into this group at times, but some are worse than others. I chose these verses and this topic because the verses are very often taken for other places they do not belong. There have been many times I have read that women should not work, (even if single or no children in the home) or esp be in politics, and these are the verses they run to as proof. But that is not what they are saying. They are talking of preaching and teaching IN THE CHURCH. They are not about every day life. But if we want to try and use them for things outside the leadership of the church, we put ourselves into a place we would have to accept that women should not speak or sing in front of men. There was a topic not long ago about the American revolution, trying to prove it was unbiblical for the colonists to declare independence. But with the logic used in that topic we would have to say women cannot sing!! But that is not what the Bible is saying. Again, I would like to say I am sorry to anyone that I got to upset. I think many gave great answers. As to the questions being over and over, that is something we run up on with those who want to push crazy doctrine. And yes I agree I was sounding crazy!!!!!

Actually, the context here is clear as to it speaking to preaching and teaching, just as the context in Romans is clear that Christians are to be OBedient to their government, and one can't be OBedient to their government by turning against them and establishing their own any more than a child can be OBedient to their parents by turning against them and declaring they are now their own authority.

In any event, it isn't right to sow discord through distortion of Scripture even if attempting to make a point.

Scripture supports itself and whether this topic, Christian OBedience to government, man's position in the family, or another, if we leave outside material, personal preference, tradition, things taught to us outside of Scripture and such things out of the way, we can take Scripture for what it says.

[trc123]

I would like to say I am sorry to all those who are upset with me. I know I have been sounding much like a Thomas Cooper. This has been a experiment of a sort. I told HappyChristian at the beginning what was going on. I have noticed on this board, as well as in life, many that take the scripture out of context and twist it to say what they want it to. And no matter how we try, they will not look at it with open eyes. I guess we all fall into this group at times, but some are worse than others. I chose these verses and this topic because the verses are very often taken for other places they do not belong. There have been many times I have read that women should not work, (even if single or no children in the home) or esp be in politics, and these are the verses they run to as proof. But that is not what they are saying. They are talking of preaching and teaching IN THE CHURCH. They are not about every day life. But if we want to try and use them for things outside the leadership of the church, we put ourselves into a place we would have to accept that women should not speak or sing in front of men. There was a topic not long ago about the American revolution, trying to prove it was unbiblical for the colonists to declare independence. But with the logic used in that topic we would have to say women cannot sing!! But that is not what the Bible is saying. Again, I would like to say I am sorry to anyone that I got to upset. I think many gave great answers. As to the questions being over and over, that is something we run up on with those who want to push crazy doctrine. And yes I agree I was sounding crazy!!!!!

While you didn't tell me what you were doing it was so OBvious I had to join in and play along. It was a very effective manner to TEACH others on this board and make them stop and really think about what the Scriptures say and just not repeat what they've been taught somewhere.

[Miss Linda]

Actually, the context here is clear as to it speaking to preaching and teaching, just as the context in Romans is clear that Christians are to be OBedient to their government, and one can't be OBedient to their government by turning against them and establishing their own any more than a child can be OBedient to their parents by turning against them and declaring they are now their own authority.

In any event, it isn't right to sow discord through distortion of Scripture even if attempting to make a point.

Scripture supports itself and whether this topic, Christian OBedience to government, man's position in the family, or another, if we leave outside material, personal preference, tradition, things taught to us outside of Scripture and such things out of the way, we can take Scripture for what it says.