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JerryNumbers
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Are Christians expected to abide by such today or does the concept of freedom mean these are all personal choices that Christians can pick and choose from and support all others doing the same?



1.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


2.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


3.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


4.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


5.

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


6.

Thou shalt not kill.


7.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.


8.

Thou shalt not steal.


9.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


10.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

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If such becomes law, it's only a matter of time before that precedent leads a judge to rule that the same "rights" can't be denied to all other sexual perversions.


Ummmmmm.....I hate to be the one to break the news, but it is already legal in a number of states. That horse has left the gate!
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CPR - knowing trc, I'm sure it was at least partially tongue in cheek. I think his initials stand for "Tongue in my Right Cheek." :nuts:

Just a comment to John's statement that groups are waiting for national legislation - I believe some are, but that is where the legislation line has to be drawn. The federal government has no jurisdiction over the private lives of American citizens. Legislation dealing with perversions such as you mentioned (I know you know this) belongs in the local communities and possibly the state, if the citizens of that state so desire.

That is one of the reasons the referendum in CA has such significance. Gay marriage is already legal in Mass. If the referendum is defeated at the SCOTUS level (which, constitutionally, it should never have gone to a federal judge because this was a matter dealing with the voters of CA, and would not affect commerce with other states nor would it be a national security issue) it will be considered a great victory, and precedent will be set that the SCOTUS created "new law" that can't be fought in the states (just like with Roe v. Wade...). It actually can be fought in the states, by nullification, but too many people are ignorant of what nullification is.

We the People of this country (and Christians have, unfortunately, taken the lead) have allowed those who hate the liberty and the freedoms that liberty grants to manipulate and convince us that the Constitution says what it doesn't and allows what it doesn't.

God's grace many times shines brighter when there is more darkness. Spiritual darkness has descended on this country, and it is getting darker all the time. Christians need (and I include myself in this) personal revival so that we have the boldness that is needed to spread the Light for those trapped in darkness. That Light is what enabled our founders to give us a Constitutional federative Republic, with liberty such as has never been seen before in the world. We can elect Constitutionalists to office (and we should), but until Christians get our priorities right, the darkness won't be lifted from our country.

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Such as?


How about commiting adultery in your heart--i.e. lusting after someone. Or hating your brother. Of course, you have already argued that no man is an island and I would agree with you, so perhaps there is no sin that doesn't have consequences for others, even indirectly.

But at root what CPR is saying here is that some sins should be made illegal and some shouldn't. And we can see that this is already the case and has been the case in both the US and the UK for a very long time when we look at the 10 commandments you posted:

1. Not illegal.
2. Not illegal.
3. Not illegal.
4. Not illegal.
5. Not illegal.
6. Illegal.
7. Not illegal.
8. Illegal.
9. Illegal sometimes.
10. Not illegal.

So out of the 10, only two are unarguably illegal. Bearing false witness can be an offence of sorts in that you can be done in a civil court for libel. You could also argue that 4 is illegal if you considered Sunday to be the modern equivalent of the Sabbath, for there are laws restricting trade and business on Sunday (in the Uk at least). Blaspheming was a punishable offence in the UK until recently but no longer. So most of the 10 commandments are not illegal.

So if CPR is wrong, then should all 10 sins being spoken of in the 10 commandments be made illegal? On the other hand, if he is right in principle but wrong on the specifics, by what basis should we judge which morals to legislate?

To make it easier to discuss I'm going to ask some questions about just one commandment: the commandment against coveting.

Should coveting be made illegal?
If not, why not?
If so, what penalty should it carry and why?
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How about commiting adultery in your heart--i.e. lusting after someone. Or hating your brother. Of course, you have already argued that no man is an island and I would agree with you, so perhaps there is no sin that doesn't have consequences for others, even indirectly.

But at root what CPR is saying here is that some sins should be made illegal and some shouldn't. And we can see that this is already the case and has been the case in both the US and the UK for a very long time when we look at the 10 commandments you posted:

1. Not illegal.
2. Not illegal.
3. Not illegal.
4. Not illegal.
5. Not illegal.
6. Illegal.
7. Not illegal.
8. Illegal.
9. Illegal sometimes.
10. Not illegal.

So out of the 10, only two are unarguably illegal. Bearing false witness can be an offence of sorts in that you can be done in a civil court for libel. You could also argue that 4 is illegal if you considered Sunday to be the modern equivalent of the Sabbath, for there are laws restricting trade and business on Sunday (in the Uk at least). Blaspheming was a punishable offence in the UK until recently but no longer. So most of the 10 commandments are not illegal.

So if CPR is wrong, then should all 10 sins being spoken of in the 10 commandments be made illegal? On the other hand, if he is right in principle but wrong on the specifics, by what basis should we judge which morals to legislate?

To make it easier to discuss I'm going to ask some questions about just one commandment: the commandment against coveting.

Should coveting be made illegal?
If not, why not?
If so, what penalty should it carry and why?


I don't know of any attempts by Christians to say sins of the heart should be legislated.

However, governments are attempting to do such under liberal and socialist doctrine with "hate crimes" laws.

Scripture tells us what should be matters of governmental law. If you are so inclined, you can read of such there.
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I don't know of any attempts by Christians to say sins of the heart should be legislated.

However, governments are attempting to do such under liberal and socialist doctrine with "hate crimes" laws.

Scripture tells us what should be matters of governmental law. If you are so inclined, you can read of such there.


Then perhaps you are more in agreement with CPR than you imply by your own line of questioning. He suggested that not all moral issues should be legislated against and he called those that shouldn't "personal moral issues" and appeared to define such as this: "The individual can make decisions that violate God's law, but that is between them and God."

You also believe that not all sins should be legislated against and you believe that sins of the heart are those that shouldn't. At least that's what I've taken from your words--sorry if I've misunderstood.

Thanks for pointing out that scripture tells us the answer. I don't pretend to know scripture very well and I pray I will never take issue with a endorsement to read it. But at the same time we are here discussing these issues aren't we? The answer, 'go and read the Bible' could be applied to all questions to the extent that the entire forum is made redundant. But clearly we all feel it is worth talking and asking questions or we would not be here. For my part I've learned much by doing so, especially as a new Christian.

Thanks again

Carl

P.S. I'd be interested in hearing from others who are happy to expand more on what John has said--i.e. what scripture tells us about which sins should be legislated against and which shouldn't.
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Ok, I don't know where I woke up today, but it must have been in Sodom and Gomorrah, and not the United States. And God delivers his people out of Sodom and Gomorrah.

All the last commandments are illegal in this country. Adultery is illegal, and sodomy is illegal - even though a poster said they weren't. Coveting - meaing to desire something illegally, is illegal (OBviously), such as conspiring to defraud my neighbor out of it, sleep with his wife, etc.

So have the other ones been at the founding. People forget in arguments with athiests we had infidelity laws in this country long after its founding. Blasphemy would go under OBsceneity laws and may still be rightfully persecuted, Sabbath laws have been awhile around and you'll hear seventh day adventists talk about them all the time.

When our courts have the ten commandments traditionally displayed, the bible used to swear people in traditionally, and its completely part of our common law, don't let the present lukewarm generation sell off your birthright - our court system doesn't work unless you have God's judgement involved in godly judgement. And the court system is in fact completely broken.

Edited by MaxKennedy
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Ok, I don't know where I woke up today, but it must have been in Sodom and Gomorrah, and not the United States. And God delivers his people out of Sodom and Gomorrah.

All the last commandments are illegal in this country. Adultery is illegal, and sodomy is illegal - even though a poster said they weren't. Coveting - meaing to desire something illegally, is illegal (OBviously), such as conspiring to defraud my neighbor out of it, sleep with his wife, etc.

So have the other ones been at the founding. People forget in arguments with athiests we had infidelity laws in this country long after its founding. Blasphemy would go under OBsceneity laws and may still be rightfully persecuted, Sabbath laws have been awhile around and you'll hear seventh day adventists talk about them all the time.

When our courts have the ten commandments traditionally displayed, the bible used to swear people in traditionally, and its completely part of our common law, don't let the present lukewarm generation sell off your birthright - our court system doesn't work unless you have God's judgement involved in godly judgement. And the court system is in fact completely broken.


There may be a very few states where laws against adultery and sodomy are still on the books, but we all know they have been either de facto or actually nullified. Actually coveting isn't illegal and I'm not sure where you are getting that info from.

cov·et (kvt)
v. cov·et·ed, cov·et·ing, cov·ets
v.tr.
1. To feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's). See Synonyms at envy.
2. To wish for longingly. See Synonyms at desire.
v.intr.
To feel immoderate desire for that which is another's.

That is something that we should strive to rid our hearts and minds of, but it is not illegal. Acting on it by stealing or engaging in fraud would be illegal. However, this is a heart issue that cannot be legislated. How can we legislate hearts and minds in the secular world? We can't.
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cov·et (kvt)
v. cov·et·ed, cov·et·ing, cov·ets
v.tr.
1. To feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's). See Synonyms at envy.
2. To wish for longingly. See Synonyms at desire.
v.intr.
To feel immoderate desire for that which is another's.

That is something that we should strive to rid our hearts and minds of, but it is not illegal. Acting on it by stealing or engaging in fraud would be illegal. However, this is a heart issue that cannot be legislated. How can we legislate hearts and minds in the secular world? We can't.


Two of those definations are so wide that they include lawful desires - ie it is completely lawful to greatly desire my neighbors land or wish for it longely if I am intending to offer him a fair price and try to buy it from him and see if he will accept it. The definations are completely meaningless in other words.

I gave you examples of where coveting finds its way into real law. To conspire to steal from your neighbor or commit adultry is a type of coveting. Its also called conspiracy, and is illegal if proved. You're confusing ability to prove and go to court over with right and wrong, but yes, conspiracy sometimes goes to court. The laws of Israel were designed to rule a people. Replace "to feel" blameworthy desire with "to have" blameworthy desire and you'll see what I am saying clearer. The question then is what is blameworthy, and you'll see that simply desiring to have something of your neighbors is not enough - because you may desire to have it lawfully as in working for it, marrying his daughter, etc. Edited by MaxKennedy
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That is something that we should strive to rid our hearts and minds of, but it is not illegal. ... How can we legislate hearts and minds in the secular world? We can't.


This is and fyi also will be and should be, part of law. Its called criminal intent.

If I kill my neighbor's pig, and it is an accident, it is one thing, and I still owe for it.

If I kill my neighbor's pig, and it was on purpose, and it is proved I coveted that pig, and talked
about it and carefully watched it and eyed it, and a jury finds enough evidence there was criminal intent,
its something else.

What we intend in our hearts is pretty much the whole difference in criminal cases.

ie
In criminal law, mens rea – the Latin term for "guilty mind"[1] – is usually one of the necessary elements of a crime. The standard common law test of criminal liability is usually expressed in the Latin phrase, actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind be also guilty".

So in conclusion - yes, the whole bible is part of our legal system and of necessity has to be. Edited by MaxKennedy
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This is and fyi also will be and should be, part of law. Its called criminal intent.

If I kill my neighbor's pig, and it is an accident, it is one thing, and I still owe for it.

If I kill my neighbor's pig, and it was on purpose, and it is proved I coveted that pig, and talked
about it and carefully watched it and eyed it, and a jury finds enough evidence there was criminal intent,
its something else.

What we intend in our hearts is pretty much the whole difference in criminal cases.

ie
In criminal law, mens rea – the Latin term for "guilty mind"[1] – is usually one of the necessary elements of a crime. The standard common law test of criminal liability is usually expressed in the Latin phrase, actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind be also guilty".

So in conclusion - yes, the whole bible is part of our legal system and of necessity has to be.


Yes, but coveting, by definition is passive and only involves the mind and the heart. It is lawful but it is against God because it is more than just a desire it is an all consuming desire that is unhealthy and could be malicious. Everything that you have mentioned here is a sin that falls under another commandment. Granted these sins can be brought on by coveting and it is prOBably a true statement that coveting is usually accompanied by another sin. Sooo, that goes into mens rea, meaning that if I commit adultery or if I steal then I had to have coveted first. But, i could potentially covet something that my neighbor has and not let it go any further than that.

I think we might mean the same thing, but I am saying that coveting, while a sin, isn't illegal if there isn't an accompanying illegal action.

I do see what you mean by conspiracy, but that implies an intention or plan to commit another, unlawful sin, so it's going beyond the realm of mere coveting.

I think there is a difference between simply wanting something and acquiring it by lawful means (this is a nice plot of land for a house for my family so I think I will seek God's guidance and see about purchasing it, or I think God is calling me to be a teacher so I am going to look into pursuing my goal of higher education). That is a goal or a desire. Coveting would be: "I can't believe my neighbor drives a Mercedes and I still drive this old Honda. He doesn't even go to church most Sundays. I really wish I had a nicer car this old thing is the worst. God, why won't you give me money for a nicer car I totally deserve it..." and so forth. It's a consuming and unhealthy desire that takes up our time and takes us away from the important things. It can also lead to other sins. Edited by CPR
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I would say that coveting does not necessarily mean something an individual does - that a group of men can covet another's property and frequently do so. They saw his rich horse, and they coveted it. Since a group of men don't talk by the mind, but at the very least the wink and the nod, this is a fine example of coveting that can get you the nose. Simply because it can be only in your heart and mind does not mean that it isn't wrong, and even there, its part of the intent that may be judged in the end. Also, I'm on good ground for arguing coveting is part of our laws since the bible has been a basis for discussion of law for time out of mind. In fact, Alfred the Great put the ten commandments in as part of his laws, so its been part of English common law since the beginning.

Some examples of coveting from the bible:

Pro 1:10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Pro 1:11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
Pro 1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
Pro 1:13 We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
Pro 1:14 Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
Pro 1:15 My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
Pro 1:16 For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
Pro 1:17 Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
Pro 1:18 And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
Pro 1:19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.


1Ki 21:1 And it came to pass after these things, that Naboth the Jezreelite had a vineyard, which was in Jezreel, hard by the palace of Ahab king of Samaria.
1Ki 21:2 And Ahab spake unto Naboth, saying, Give me thy vineyard, that I may have it for a garden of herbs, because it is near unto my house: and I will give thee for it a better vineyard than it; or, if it seem good to thee, I will give thee the worth of it in money.
1Ki 21:3 And Naboth said to Ahab, The LORD forbid it me, that I should give the inheritance of my fathers unto thee.
1Ki 21:4 And Ahab came into his house heavy and displeased because of the word which Naboth the Jezreelite had spoken to him: for he had said, I will not give thee the inheritance of my fathers. And he laid him down upon his bed, and turned away his face, and would eat no bread.
1Ki 21:5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?
1Ki 21:6 And he said unto her, Because I spake unto Naboth the Jezreelite, and said unto him, Give me thy vineyard for money; or else, if it please thee, I will give thee another vineyard for it: and he answered, I will not give thee my vineyard.
1Ki 21:7 And Jezebel his wife said unto him, Dost thou now govern the kingdom of Israel? arise, and eat bread, and let thine heart be merry: I will give thee the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite.
1Ki 21:8 So she wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nOBles that were in his city, dwelling with Naboth.
1Ki 21:9 And she wrote in the letters, saying, Proclaim a fast, and set Naboth on high among the people:
1Ki 21:10 And set two men, sons of Belial, before him, to bear witness against him, saying, Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.
1Ki 21:11 And the men of his city, even the elders and the nOBles who were the inhabitants in his city, did as Jezebel had sent unto them, and as it was written in the letters which she had sent unto them.
1Ki 21:12 They proclaimed a fast, and set Naboth on high among the people.
1Ki 21:13 And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, even against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.
1Ki 21:14 Then they sent to Jezebel, saying, Naboth is stoned, and is dead.
1Ki 21:15 And it came to pass, when Jezebel heard that Naboth was stoned, and was dead, that Jezebel said to Ahab, Arise, take possession of the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, which he refused to give thee for money: for Naboth is not alive, but dead.
1Ki 21:16 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard that Naboth was dead, that Ahab rose up to go down to the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite, to take possession of it.
1Ki 21:17 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,
1Ki 21:18 Arise, go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, which is in Samaria: behold, he is in the vineyard of Naboth, whither he is gone down to possess it.
1Ki 21:19 And thou shalt speak unto him, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Hast thou killed, and also taken possession? And thou shalt speak unto him, saying, Thus saith the LORD, In the place where dogs licked the blood of Naboth shall dogs lick thy blood, even thine.
1Ki 21:20 And Ahab said to Elijah, Hast thou found me, O mine enemy? And he answered, I have found thee: because thou hast sold thyself to work evil in the sight of the LORD.
1Ki 21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,
1Ki 21:22 And will make thine house like the house of JerOBoam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, for the provocation wherewith thou hast provoked me to anger, and made Israel to sin.
1Ki 21:23 And of Jezebel also spake the LORD, saying, The dogs shall eat Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.
1Ki 21:24 Him that dieth of Ahab in the city the dogs shall eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat.
1Ki 21:25 But there was none like unto Ahab, which did sell himself to work wickedness in the sight of the LORD, whom Jezebel his wife stirred up.
1Ki 21:26 And he did very abominably in following idols, according to all things as did the Amorites, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
1Ki 21:27 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.

John 12:3-8
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

The new testament mentions coveting a lot. I'm looking at the verses now.

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I think there is a difference between simply wanting something and acquiring it by lawful means (this is a nice plot of land for a house for my family so I think I will seek God's guidance and see about purchasing it, or I think God is calling me to be a teacher so I am going to look into pursuing my goal of higher education). That is a goal or a desire. Coveting would be: "I can't believe my neighbor drives a Mercedes and I still drive this old Honda. He doesn't even go to church most Sundays. I really wish I had a nicer car this old thing is the worst. God, why won't you give me money for a nicer car I totally deserve it..." and so forth. It's a consuming and unhealthy desire that takes up our time and takes us away from the important things. It can also lead to other sins.


We should define coveting by the examples the bible gives. The world isn't going to do it for us. I listed three examples, but there is a lot more. Around 23 verses from the NT also mention coveting.

Romans 13 says:

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment,
it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love is the fulfulling of the law, and you can find that other places in the bible, and its important.
But right before it it says "love works no ill to his neighbor", which means coveting does work
ill to your nieghbor, and is not your own personal, effects no one else, sin. Edited by MaxKennedy
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One last one -

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

If covetous is just an internal sin, how come in 1Co you can not only see it as well as the other sins, but you are commanded not to keep company with such?

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I remember watching a religious talk show on TV several years back. One of the main things they got across was that the average homosexuals loves to draft underage boys and girls, that has a big affect on society.

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Are Christians expected to abide by such today or does the concept of freedom mean these are all personal choices that Christians can pick and choose from and support all others doing the same?



1.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


2.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


3.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


4.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


5.

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.


6.

Thou shalt not kill.


7.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.


8.

Thou shalt not steal.


9.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


10.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.


Of course they are, the non-Christians holds the professing Christian to very high standards. Yet more than that, the one who is a child of God ought to want to abide by all of them, that is if they love Jesus.
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