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Catholic Persecution of Christians


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You sound like a great fan of the popery.  Are you Catholic?  

 

We know about the Muhammaden atrocities too, we're trying to show you Catholicism's.  Do you acknowledge that today in Catholic churches there are piles of skulls, dead men's bones and even those of babies?

 

Do you believe it proper for Mary to be called queen of heaven and for papists to pray to her?

 

Seems to me that you know just enough about Catholicism or Islam to get things going.  I know enough about both to post an educated reply.  All you know about it is what you've probably learned from anti-Catholic web Pages which is usually the case.

I know quite well what Catholicism and Islam teaches.  I also know quite well that Rome will have nothing to do with the end-times.

 

Here are last months (March) statistics from the religion of peace. And this is only what is reported on. About half of these atrocities do not get reported on.

 

There have been 189 attacks four of them "Allahu Akbars," in 21 countries, against 5 different religions, with with 988 dead bodies, and 2093 people critically injured.

 

This is Islam!

 

Last month it was reported by the Pakistani health minister that honor killings in the tribal areas of the country has gotten out of control. Honor killings are outlawed in Pakistan.  However, there were over 900 honor killings committed against women mostly in the tribal areas of the country last year.  They're unable to police most of those areas. Most of the victims are young women as young as the age of 12. One 12 year old girl who married someone against her families wishes was beheaded in the street by her older brother while the family was in favor of the killing to uphold the families honor in the community.

 

Now. You tell me the atrocities Rome committed in the month of March!

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A friend of mine has a newspaper from Mexico City from just a couple years ago. In the paper is an advertisement  from the Catholic church there, posting a bounty for all Christian Missionaries and pa

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John Badby, March 1. 1410, burnt alive for opposing stating that Christ is not bodily present in the Mass.

Patrick Hamilton, March 1, 1527, burnt alive for defending God's gospel against the archbishop of St. Andrea's. he confessed Christ to be his only patron and advocate, and acknowledged free justification by faith in Christ.

George Wishart, March 1, 1546, put to death by David Beaton, the archbishop and cardinal of Scotland.

There are many that have no month listed.
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John Badby, March 1. 1410, burnt alive for opposing stating that Christ is not bodily present in the Mass.

Patrick Hamilton, March 1, 1527, burnt alive for defending God's gospel against the archbishop of St. Andrea's. he confessed Christ to be his only patron and advocate, and acknowledged free justification by faith in Christ.

George Wishart, March 1, 1546, put to death by David Beaton, the archbishop and cardinal of Scotland.

There are many that have no month listed.

 

 

Problem #1.  Your living in the past.  My question was...Now. You tell me the atrocities Rome committed in the month of March!

 

Rome hasn't persecuted Christians in over 600 years.  Islam hasn't stopped persecuting people since the pedophile, common criminal, and murderer Muhammad started his evil false religion 1400 years ago.

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Problem #1.  Your living in the past.  My question was...Now. You tell me the atrocities Rome committed in the month of March!

 

Rome hasn't persecuted Christians in over 600 years.  Islam hasn't stopped persecuting people since the pedophile, common criminal, and murderer Muhammad started his evil false religion 1400 years ago.

 

Earlier you stated RCC had never persecuted Christians, that Rome did & now you say they have not for over 600 years. So which is it, never, or just not lately?

 

By the way why bring up pedophile? The RCC has done an amazing amount of that & tried with all their might to cover it all up. 

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This new screen name of yours reeks of someone who is on a bad drug trip.  I know a lot more about the popery than you think.

 

Worse than outright murder, is the billions of folks over the years who've faithfully attended the Catholic church and then when they died heard the most terrifying words in the world.  Do you know what those words are?

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 The early church began with rituals and traditions and the Catholic church simply adopted them  They are mentioned in the first century didache.  It's Jewish tradition that was frowned upon by the Apostles.  Not Church tradition.

 

If you were to read Platina's *List of the Popes, written several hundred years ago, you will see that he says each pope added to the tradition bit by bit.

 

*  May heve been called Lives of the Popes, it is many years since I read it.

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Problem #1.  Your living in the past.  My question was...Now. You tell me the atrocities Rome committed in the month of March!

 

I did. You didn't specify the year. :wink

 

I am not disagreeing with you regarding the evil of Islam. Catholicism, however, has murdered thousands, perhaps millions, over the centuries that it was in power. It lays low today, as it hasn't the political power to act as it used to. Now it simply tries to convince Christians/Protestants that it is just like them, and lures them 'back' into the the RCC. The sad thing is that many (most?) Christians don't understand what the doctrine of that church is, nor its history, so they believe that the Mass is just Communion, and Rome is just another Christian denomination.

 

According to Catholic dogma, each time the Mass is offered, Christ is re-sacrificed to gain more merit for sin. This is blasphemy. The Bible says in Hebrews 10:10-14:

 

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

One sacrifice for all.

 

Canon 9 of the historic Council of Trent states:

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that  nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema." 

Canon 12 states:

"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

 

These are in direct contradiction to the Bible which says:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5).

 

According to the historical practice, stated dogma (Council of Trent), and current stance (the Council of Trent has never been repealed), I am accursed to the Catholic church.  If I had lived those six centuries ago, I would probably have been drowned or burnt to death. *shudder*  They have not repealed the doctrines that led to such treatment.  I am not demonizing the individuals who have been deceived by the Roman church... I am simply refusing to be deceived myself.

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Can anyone link a few good sites that go through the history of the Catholic church persecuting the earlier Christians? Those that were called Anabaptists and before that? A website that has references would be preferred but not necessary per say.

What does it matter.  Are you bent on slandering the church?  Catholicism no longer persecutes people.  Forgive and forget!

Look at what's going on in the world today.  Islam is bent on world domination through demographics and terrorism.  Does that strike a nerve in you somehow?  or is it going to take the next 911 to convince you.

 

The American Hiroshima is just around the corner.

In the words of one Muslim...

 

BRACE YOURSELF

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Salyan,

 

That's what some Protestant's would tell you but...that's not blasphemy. I have no problem with a crucifix because it's an important part of our salvation. We are told to carry and endure our cross just like Christ did.  When I go to the cross for forgiveness of sins I don't see an empty cross.  I see the price Christ paid for me. The Protestants have again given the cross a bad rap because of their anti-Catholicism.

 

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

 

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

 

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [i say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.   Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
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Salyan,

 

That's what some Protestant's would tell you but...that's not blasphemy. I have no problem with a crucifix because it's an important part of our salvation. We are told to carry and endure our cross just like Christ did.  When I go to the cross for forgiveness of sins I don't see an empty cross.  I see the price Christ paid for me. The Protestants have again given the cross a bad rap because of their anti-Catholicism.

 

Um... I wasn't talking about the cross...??  Although I will say that I love to see the empty cross - because Christ not only died for my sins but rose again! He's not still on the cross - He rose - proving Himself to be God and became the firstfruits of the resurrection - because He rose, I shall too! Hallelujah!

The teaching of the continual re-sacrifice of Christ is blasphemy.  I was not told this by any preacher, and I was not taught it in any book.  I was researching the Mass in one of my odd studies, and discovered that it was called the 'sacrifice of the Mass' because it taught the continual re-sacrifice of Christ. Hebrews specifically contradicts this teaching. Christ died once for all... by one sacrifice He hath perfected forever. There is no need of continual re-sacrifice!  Not only is there no need of it, but such a teaching spits in the face of His finished work on Calvary. "It is finished!" It is such a damnable doctrine, for it makes light of the efficacy of His blood shed once for us. It denies the Biblical teaching that 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission' (is it not called the 'bloodless offering of the Mass'?). It calls the teaching of Hebrews a lie. It is in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of Scripture! It even teaches cannibalism and blood-eating (even though in each dispensation man has been told not to eat blood).  And evangelicals today think it is just another form of Communion.  I hate it! Oh, I wish I could make you see how false and unBiblical it is.   :icon_sad:

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What does it matter.  Are you bent on slandering the church?  Catholicism no longer persecutes people.  Forgive and forget!

Look at what's going on in the world today.  Islam is bent on world domination through demographics and terrorism.  Does that strike a nerve in you somehow?  or is it going to take the next 911 to convince you.

 

The American Hiroshima is just around the corner.

In the words of one Muslim...

 

BRACE YOURSELF

A friend of mine has a newspaper from Mexico City from just a couple years ago. In the paper is an advertisement  from the Catholic church there, posting a bounty for all Christian Missionaries and pastors killed. Its real, I've seen it. That they don't persecute in America doesn't mean they don't in third-world areas where they still have power. Also of note is that in many such countries, Catholics differentiate themselves from Christian-they don't claim the title-they are Catholic, not Christian.

 

No doubt that the Muslims are a greater threat physically, but spiritually, the RCC is a greater enemy, since so many are fooled into believeing they are Christian when they are nothing of the sort, but are the pagan offspring of Babylon. Their festivals and feasts are all of pagan origin, their use of idols and statues forbidden by the word of God, their Mariolatry straight out of Babylon's worship of the queen of Heaven. 

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Um... I wasn't talking about the cross...??  Although I will say that I love to see the empty cross - because Christ not only died for my sins but rose again! He's not still on the cross - He rose - proving Himself to be God and became the firstfruits of the resurrection - because He rose, I shall too! Hallelujah!

The teaching of the continual re-sacrifice of Christ is blasphemy.  I was not told this by any preacher, and I was not taught it in any book.  I was researching the Mass in one of my odd studies, and discovered that it was called the 'sacrifice of the Mass' because it taught the continual re-sacrifice of Christ. Hebrews specifically contradicts this teaching. Christ died once for all... by one sacrifice He hath perfected forever. There is no need of continual re-sacrifice!  Not only is there no need of it, but such a teaching spits in the face of His finished work on Calvary. "It is finished!" It is such a damnable doctrine, for it makes light of the efficacy of His blood shed once for us. It denies the Biblical teaching that 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission' (is it not called the 'bloodless offering of the Mass'?). It calls the teaching of Hebrews a lie. It is in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of Scripture! It even teaches cannibalism and blood-eating (even though in each dispensation man has been told not to eat blood).  And evangelicals today think it is just another form of Communion.  I hate it! Oh, I wish I could make you see how false and unBiblical it is.   :icon_sad:

That's what you are being told and taught.  And you have no idea how much mis-information is in your reply.  I no longer have the desire to debate these things because these things are endless and senseless. Protestants seem to think they already know everything there is know about............everything there is to know about Catholicism.  There is no continual sacrifice, only continual atonement.  Christ died one time for all time doesn't mean we only look at the Cross with Christ on it only on Good Friday.  I've learned on my first journey with Christ to never believe what his people say without researching it myself in His Word. Especially when they're criticizing another church!  People today rely too much on others to do their homework and don't realize or don't care  if it goes against the Word of God.

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A friend of mine has a newspaper from Mexico City from just a couple years ago. In the paper is an advertisement  from the Catholic church there, posting a bounty for all Christian Missionaries and pastors killed. Its real, I've seen it. That they don't persecute in America doesn't mean they don't in third-world areas where they still have power. Also of note is that in many such countries, Catholics differentiate themselves from Christian-they don't claim the title-they are Catholic, not Christian.

 

No doubt that the Muslims are a greater threat physically, but spiritually, the RCC is a greater enemy, since so many are fooled into believeing they are Christian when they are nothing of the sort, but are the pagan offspring of Babylon. Their festivals and feasts are all of pagan origin, their use of idols and statues forbidden by the word of God, their Mariolatry straight out of Babylon's worship of the queen of Heaven. 

I believe it is you that is fooled into thinking Catholic's are unsaved and are the greater enemy!

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Now, I'm confused.
I thought you said you were IFB (or maybe at least implied it) but now you are talking as though you ARE a catholic in the way you use the "us and them" style when talking about protestants.

Could you please make it plain that you are or are not actually a catholic - because at this point I'm confused about it.

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That's what you are being told and taught... People today rely too much on others to do their homework and don't realize or don't care if it goes against the Word of God.


Sigh. Which part of 'studied for myself' don't you understand? I don't think you know the Word very well if you think the references I made from the Bible go against the Bible. :shootme:
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I believe it is you that is fooled into thinking Catholic's are unsaved and are the greater enemy!

James (KaoticProphet)

Please answer this one question I have for you:

If you died this very instant or in 3 hours, or 6 days, or 8 months or 3 years from this instant, are you 100% sure that you would be in Heaven?

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I believe it is you that is fooled into thinking Catholic's are unsaved and are the greater enemy!

Mariolotry; the confession, and being forgiven by a man; purchase of indulgences; a continual 'unbloody' sacrifice of Christ through the eucharist; praying to the dead; the pagan celebrations of Ishtar/Astarte, All Hollow's Eve and the Mass of Christ; the Inquisition; burning alive men for the crime of translating the Bible into the common tongue; Pope, "the vicar of Christ"; priests, called 'father' and 'Altar Christus, (another Christ); the priesthood of the Nicolaitans; works salvation; infant baptism; where shall I stop in the unbiblical aspects of the beast that is the Roman Catholi 'church'?

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Now, I'm confused.
I thought you said you were IFB (or maybe at least implied it) but now you are talking as though you ARE a catholic in the way you use the "us and them" style when talking about protestants.

Could you please make it plain that you are or are not actually a catholic - because at this point I'm confused about it.

I didn't say I was IFB and I'm not a Catholic. I said my doctrine, which is my own, is in upwards of 90% identical to IFB's. Why are people so bent on labeling our Christianity?  I am James the Christian, a brother in Christ, and I stand up for the body of Christ.  I don't alienate myself from them because they are my brothers and sisters. That's what gives ecumenism which is Christian unity a bad rap.

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Sigh. Which part of 'studied for myself' don't you understand? I don't think you know the Word very well if you think the references I made from the Bible go against the Bible. :shootme:

I wasn't talking about bible references.  When I do you'll know it.  I'm talking about your perception of the Catholics. 

 

I'm talking about all of this not one verse quoted...

 

 The teaching of the continual re-sacrifice of Christ is blasphemy.  I was not told this by any preacher, and I was not taught it in any book.  I was researching the Mass in one of my odd studies, and discovered that it was called the 'sacrifice of the Mass' because it taught the continual re-sacrifice of Christ. Hebrews specifically contradicts this teaching. Christ died once for all... by one sacrifice He hath perfected forever. There is no need of continual re-sacrifice!  Not only is there no need of it, but such a teaching spits in the face of His finished work on Calvary. "It is finished!" It is such a damnable doctrine, for it makes light of the efficacy of His blood shed once for us. It denies the Biblical teaching that 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission' (is it not called the 'bloodless offering of the Mass'?). It calls the teaching of Hebrews a lie. It is in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of Scripture! It even teaches cannibalism and blood-eating (even though in each dispensation man has been told not to eat blood).  And evangelicals today think it is just another form of Communion.  I hate it! Oh, I wish I could make you see how false and unBiblical it is.

 

So my question to you now is...

 

Did you learn what you know about Catholicism from the Catechism or from Catholic answers?  In other words did you go to the source?  Or did you go to the many anti-Catholic web sites that are biased and even hateful of Catholics?

I was a Catholic for a long time.  But not as long as I've been a Protestant

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Mariolotry; the confession, and being forgiven by a man; purchase of indulgences; a continual 'unbloody' sacrifice of Christ through the eucharist; praying to the dead; the pagan celebrations of Ishtar/Astarte, All Hollow's Eve and the Mass of Christ; the Inquisition; burning alive men for the crime of translating the Bible into the common tongue; Pope, "the vicar of Christ"; priests, called 'father' and 'Altar Christus, (another Christ); the priesthood of the Nicolaitans; works salvation; infant baptism; where shall I stop in the unbiblical aspects of the beast that is the Roman Catholi 'church'?

I've seen it all before.  Makes no sense to me either.

 

I can see that it's a real threat to the world....that is "your world."

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James (KaoticProphet)

Please answer this one question I have for you:

If you died this very instant or in 3 hours, or 6 days, or 8 months or 3 years from this instant, are you 100% sure that you would be in Heaven?

No I absolutely would not be in heaven.

 

OK I won't play games and I'll give you the complete answer.  I would be in a place of rest.  A place where there is a perfect sense of well being.  A place called paradise in the presence of the Lord to await the resurrection.

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So my question to you now is...

Did you learn what you know about Catholicism from the Catechism or from Catholic answers? In other words did you go to the source? Or did you go to the many anti-Catholic web sites that are biased and even hateful of Catholics?
I was a Catholic for a long time. But not as long as I've been a Protestant


Fair's fair! :)

Council of Trent is an original source. As for any other sources, I honestly couldn't tell you. I find info online from all sorts of random sites, and this search was quite a while ago. I was trained as a library tech, though, so I have some pretty strict personal standards for verifying online information.

I did a quick search and found this info that corroborates a good deal of what I said: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass
So I know I'm not far off. That page also includes the most twisted 'explanation' of Hebrews I've ever heard - turns the clear meaning quite backward!
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Fair's fair! :)

Council of Trent is an original source. As for any other sources, I honestly couldn't tell you. I find info online from all sorts of random sites, and this search was quite a while ago. I was trained as a library tech, though, so I have some pretty strict personal standards for verifying online information.

I did a quick search and found this info that corroborates a good deal of what I said: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass
So I know I'm not far off. That page also includes the most twisted 'explanation' of Hebrews I've ever heard - turns the clear meaning quite backward!

 

Well as long as you think you're not too far off and you're happy with it good luck. We'll let the Lord decide if Catholics are "too far off."

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I didn't say I was IFB and I'm not a Catholic. I said my doctrine, which is my own, is in upwards of 90% identical to IFB's. Why are people so bent on labeling our Christianity?  I am James the Christian, a brother in Christ, and I stand up for the body of Christ.  I don't alienate myself from them because they are my brothers and sisters. That's what gives ecumenism which is Christian unity a bad rap.

 

kaoticprofit,

 

It scares me to see that you claim your own doctrine. You ask why people are so bent on labeling Christianity, and claim that alienating ourselves from other "brothers and sisters" is wrong. The answer to your question is found in the Doctrine of Separation.

 

Romans 16:17: "17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them"

 

2 John 8-11: "8Look to youselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

 

In 2 Timothy 2:16-18, we find Paul instructing Timothy to "16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." These men were teaching things contrary to scripture and causing people to fall away. Timothy was to shun (reject and separate from) those teachings.

 

2 Timothy 3:5 "5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

 

Revelation 18:4 "4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

 

These are but a few verses detailing the importance, nay, the COMMAND, to separate from those who do not preach the Bible. No matter how you look at it, the Catholic church does not teach the Bible. Kaoticprofit, I urge you to forsake your own doctrine and to take up the doctrine of the Bible.

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I've seen it all before.  Makes no sense to me either.

 

I can see that it's a real threat to the world....that is "your world."

What you say makes no sense. My world is not threatened, because I know the truth, and it has set me free from the bondage of any such lies as are found in the Roman system, the same as the lies found in Mormonism, Jehovah's (false) Witnesses, 7th Day Adventism, and the many other cults that are works-based religions that worship false gods and man-made systems.

 

That your doctrine is, by your admission, your own, you have exposed yourself as a fasle teacher, a wolf; nowhere has the Lord given us permission to have our own doctrine, but to follow the faith once delivered unto the saints. I suspect you are of the type that has more or less rejected all other walks in favor of your own, stitched together with your reasoning, and interpret scripture as something that can be picked and chosen from according to your will. If so, well, good luck with that.

 

Tell me, upon what do you place your hopes for etenal life, for the salvation of your soul? A eucharist? A baptism? Your good, hard works?

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No I absolutely would not be in heaven.

 

OK I won't play games and I'll give you the complete answer.  I would be in a place of rest.  A place where there is a perfect sense of well being.  A place called paradise in the presence of the Lord to await the resurrection.

 

Some know so much that isn't so.

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Hey Kaoticprofit, you do know that this here website is not made up of protestants, right?  We were NEVER part of the RCC.

What gives you the impression I'm not a Protestant?  I was banned from the Catholic forum about 8 years ago for standing up for the Protestants.  I was banned from one forum for standing up for other churches in the body of Christ.  I've studied these things more than on the surface and know enough to know better than to classify my brothers in Christ by their denomination, doctrine, or their politics. 

 

I never said you were never part of the RCC.  

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It scares me to see that you claim your own doctrine. You ask why people are so bent on labeling Christianity, and claim that alienating ourselves from other "brothers and sisters" is wrong. The answer to your question is found in the Doctrine of Separation.

 

 

I've studied the doctrines of nearly every main denomination. I have a hermeneutic that I apply that's sensible. And I know why I believe what I believe too.

 

Let me start out by saying this. Romans 16:16 is a final salutation to the people in a woman's Church in Rome. The final words are, "Salute one another with an holy kiss." The churches of Christ salute you. This is directed toward people in the Church who have strayed from the complete truth but not abandoned it.  Verse 17 doesn't imply that people who cause divisions are condemned.  just that they should be watched and avoided.

 

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
 

The verse say's "to mark them."

 

Mark is the Greek word 'shopao' and means to observe them...not to condemn them

.

Another word that proves these kind of people remained in the church is the word(s) "good words" in verse 18...For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

 

That's the word chrēstologia and it means, "fair speaking, the smooth and plausible address which simulates goodness." The Greeks defined that word as "a man who speaks well and who acts ill." One who hides behind a facade of pious religious words." One who pretends to serve Christ. They don't do these things by direct attack but are subtle about it. This kind of thing often happens when a congregation gets a new minister.

 

Romans 16: 17-18 isn't about "doctrine."

 

2 John 8-11: Look to youselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

 

 

Here's the thing again. You're taking this way out of context and aren't applying this to issue the context. Lets take it a few verses back...

2 John 1:5-7 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

 

Walk in his commandments isn't implying correct doctrine.

 

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

OK!  Who are these deceivers? Those who confess not that Jesus Christ IS COME IN THE FLESH. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

I don't care how you cut it but Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism fits this criteria but Catholicism does not!

  

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

 

What is this doctrine? That Jesus is come in the flesh and on the basis Catholic's are not in denial!

 

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. Do not bid Godspeed to anyone who denies Jesus has not come in the flesh

 

This verse is speaking of antichrist in the truest form. The denial that Jesus ever came in the flesh in the first place.

 

In 2 Timothy 2:16-18, we find Paul instructing Timothy to "16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. "

2 Timothy 3:5 "5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

 

Vain bablings are empty discussion, discussion of vain and useless matters. And ungodliness or "ungodly thoughts and deeds," is something we are still subject to even as a Christian.

 

And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

Who are these guys Paul names? They are members of the church! Paul outwardly criticizes and shames them. These men were teaching things contrary to scripture and causing people to fall away. Timothy was to shun (reject and separate from) those teachings.  It seems that they started out ok but eventually their doctrine was not good because Paul had problems with Hymenaeu in 1 Timothy 1:20. The fundamental error was that Hymenaeus taught that the resurrection had already taken place and that threw Paul over the top. But again. I don't think you can conclude from the text that Hymenaeu was "antichrist" like those mentioned in 2 John because Hymenaeus did not deny that Christ came in the flesh. See the difference?

 

These are but a few verses detailing the importance, nay, the COMMAND, to separate from those who do not preach the Bible. No matter how you look at it, the Catholic church does not teach the Bible. Kaoticprofit, I urge you to forsake your own doctrine and to take up the doctrine of the Bible.

No. You want me to accept the doctrines of a Church because we all perceive diffeent doctrines in the bible.

 

Revelation 18:4 "4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

 

Revelation 18:4 doesn't imply that Christians to get out of Catholicism or any Church for that matter. The word people indicates all people of all nations and not Christians.

 

The correct interpretation is for all of His people is for all Muslim's to get out of Islam or Babylon the Great.

 

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I did a quick search and found this info that corroborates a good deal of what I said: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass
 

 

Thanks for the resource.  Because I had some extra time I thought I would check out this site.  I'm somewhat aghast at what I find.  In a defense of their prayer habits they have an entire section devoted to the prayers to Mary.  As part of the rosary there is supposed to be contemplation on the "Glorious Mysteries":

 

"I. The Resurrection 

II. The Ascension 

III. The Descent of the Holy Spirit 

IV. The Assumption of our Blessed Mother into Heaven 

V. The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth"

 

When I saw #5 (V.) there, I immediately recalled my study into the paganism that sprang out of Babylon that manifested itself in the worship of the "queen of heaven" in the pagan goddess Ishtar/Ashtart which translated into pretty much every polythestic culture there is (Egypt, Canaan, Greece/Rome, etc).

 

Immediately below that is the "Hail Holy Queen" prayer:

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ"

 

and then there is the "Memorare:

"Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen." 

 

So here we have prayer and petition to seek an answer and intervention given to someone who is not God.  If that's not idolotry, and thus false religion, then I don't know what is.  At least Muslims and Mormons "claim" to be talking to the same God we are (though I contend they are not), but the Catholic church unabashedly prays to someone they KNOW not to be God.  How one reconciles this with Exodus 20:2-5 I'll never understand.

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James, I know you've said you can't be bothered to debate the particulars anymore, but given you just challenged Salyan to explain her sources, maybe you'll be willing to briefly comment on her reply. You've said that Catholicism doesn't have a concept of continual sacrifice, yet Salyan's just posted a link to a conventional Catholic apologetic website that does talk about continual sacrifice. Do you have any comment on what the website says? Is the website misrepresenting Catholics, in your opinion?

 

Cheers

 

Carl

I'm tired of arguing over these kind of things because they're fruitless and endless.  I'm willing to comment on any reply time willing.  The direction this should go now is what is damnable and un-damnable heresies.  Maybe you didn't catch it but that's what I've been saying all along.  In the passages around Romans 16:17 Paul isn't condemning or excommunicating these people who are serving the Lord their own desires.  Paul tells them to "observe them and avoid them."  This is actually a common thing in Churches today too.   "Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned;"

 

They're causing divisions and arguments contrary to some specific doctrinal details originally taught by Paul and the apostles.  Those differences caused disputes contrary to, but not in complete opposition of, Christ like in 2 John.  They're not excommunicated but have reason to believe they usually go off and start their own churches anyway.  They are not condemned by Paul so I would recognize this as an un-damnable heresy.  Today we would probably call them or JW's or Mormons, or SDA's.  

The deceivers here....

 

17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

 

The verse is not saying that the false teaching is deceitful, it's saying more that the people are being deceived by the belly of the preacher so he softens up the gospel message to make it more plausible. 

 

They are different than the deceivers in verse 7 of 2 John 1:5-11 where they are damned.

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

They are called antichrist because they deny Christ came in the flesh and that's a damnable heresy.. 

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Thanks for the resource.  Because I had some extra time I thought I would check out this site.  I'm somewhat aghast at what I find.  In a defense of their prayer habits they have an entire section devoted to the prayers to Mary.  As part of the rosary there is supposed to be contemplation on the "Glorious Mysteries":

 

"I. The Resurrection 

II. The Ascension 

III. The Descent of the Holy Spirit 

IV. The Assumption of our Blessed Mother into Heaven 

V. The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth"

 

When I saw #5 (V.) there, I immediately recalled my study into the paganism that sprang out of Babylon that manifested itself in the worship of the "queen of heaven" in the pagan goddess Ishtar/Ashtart which translated into pretty much every polythestic culture there is (Egypt, Canaan, Greece/Rome, etc).

 

Immediately below that is the "Hail Holy Queen" prayer:

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ"

 

and then there is the "Memorare:

"Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to thee, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To thee we come, before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer us. Amen." 

 

So here we have prayer and petition to seek an answer and intervention given to someone who is not God.  If that's not idolotry, and thus false religion, then I don't know what is.  At least Muslims and Mormons "claim" to be talking to the same God we are (though I contend they are not), but the Catholic church unabashedly prays to someone they KNOW not to be God.  How one reconciles this with Exodus 20:2-5 I'll never understand.

This is what makes debating this unfruitful.  You can copy and past a mound full of useless stuff and I don't want to deal with that.  I know what Catholicism teaches and I'm not encouraging it.  I want to know what the Word of God teaches.  There's one fundamental difference between the way you people interpret scripture than the way I do.  You look at Catholicism and shoehorn it into scripture.  I look at scripture first in the lexicons and see if that criteria fits into what I'm considering.....or trying to make it fit into.  There is a difference.  You can make anything fit into the bible.  But you can't make the bible fit into anything.

 

When the word of God say's antichrist is one who denies Christ came in the flesh.... I believe it.  That alone excludes Catholicism like it or not! 

I believe in the inspired Word of God and accept what it say's regardless if it goes against what I already believe.  Do you?

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Salyan,

 

That's what some Protestant's would tell you but...that's not blasphemy. I have no problem with a crucifix because it's an important part of our salvation. We are told to carry and endure our cross just like Christ did.  When I go to the cross for forgiveness of sins I don't see an empty cross.  I see the price Christ paid for me. The Protestants have again given the cross a bad rap because of their anti-Catholicism.

 

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

 

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

 


And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [i say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

You've been dogmatized...I just made a new word! I could quote scriptures out of context too. Have you ever put these scriptures you referenced in true context of the scriptures around them? 

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