Will A Man Rob God?

[John81]

I think some might be misunderstanding the 10%. I think we can use that as a basis and doesn't necessarily only pertain to a new Christian or anything like that because on top (not part of let me stress) of that 10% are missions giving, love offerings and special offerings. Just wanted to make that clear.

If someone takes the issue to the Lord in prayer and are led to give according to a 10% baseline then they should follow the Lord in that. However, to say that everyone must have a 10% baseline is not in accord with New Testament teaching.

One problem I've noticed many pastors bring up is the wealthy in their congregations who love the 10% rule, or love the idea they must tithe. They give their 10% and feel righteous when in many cases the Lord would have them give much more and they could easily be filling the gaps within the church they attend but once they have given their 10% they feel they are already better than many others in the congregation.

I think it was J. Vernon McGee who related a story from during the Great Depression. A wealthy member of the congregation boasted that he was giving his 10% even though the economy was down. He lifted himself up and denounced those in the congregation who were unemployed and giving very little or nothing because they had no income. McGee told the man God didn't prescribe the tithe for the New Testament church, pointed to some NT verses, and then told the man God gives more to some so they can give more in times of need. He told the man he shouldn't feel self-righteous because of his faithful tithe, but rather he should take the matter to the Lord in prayer where he would likely learn the Lord would have him give much more at this time rather than using his wealth to live high above most others.

I'm sure I didn't tell the story as well as McGee, but I relate it because I've always found that to be very compelling. New Testament Christians are not to give based upon any law, which is compulsion, but out of grace by the leading of Christ.

The early church, as we see in Acts and the Epistles, were very giving. This is the result of truly following Christ and not attempting to use our own reasoning.

We read of Peter confronting the husband and wife who sold property and proclaimed to give the whole price to the church when they didn't. When Peter confronted them he didn't tell them they only had to give a tithe (10%) and the rest (90%) they could have done with as they pleased. Peter told them the entire amount was theirs to do with as they would. Had they given any amount, or none at all, and done so honestly, Peter would not have confronted them and they would not have been condemned to death.

We are to accept Christ as Lord, that means turning to Him in everything and obeying Him in everything. This includes our giving, whatever amount He would have us to give, this is what we should give, for His glory and honour.

[DennisD]

If someone takes the issue to the Lord in prayer and are led to give according to a 10% baseline then they should follow the Lord in that. However, to say that everyone must have a 10% baseline is not in accord with New Testament teaching.

Sorry, that's not what I was saying. Edited August 26, 2010 by DennisDurty

[John81]

Sorry, that's not what I was saying.

We're good, I wasn't meaning everything directed at you, I mostly replied to your post as a foundation for some of what I was putting forth. Sorry for any misunderstanding!

[irishman]

If someone takes the issue to the Lord in prayer and are led to give according to a 10% baseline then they should follow the Lord in that. However, to say that everyone must have a 10% baseline is not in accord with New Testament teaching.

One problem I've noticed many pastors bring up is the wealthy in their congregations who love the 10% rule, or love the idea they must tithe. They give their 10% and feel righteous when in many cases the Lord would have them give much more and they could easily be filling the gaps within the church they attend but once they have given their 10% they feel they are already better than many others in the congregation.

I think it was J. Vernon McGee who related a story from during the Great Depression. A wealthy member of the congregation boasted that he was giving his 10% even though the economy was down. He lifted himself up and denounced those in the congregation who were unemployed and giving very little or nothing because they had no income. McGee told the man God didn't prescribe the tithe for the New Testament church, pointed to some NT verses, and then told the man God gives more to some so they can give more in times of need. He told the man he shouldn't feel self-righteous because of his faithful tithe, but rather he should take the matter to the Lord in prayer where he would likely learn the Lord would have him give much more at this time rather than using his wealth to live high above most others.

I'm sure I didn't tell the story as well as McGee, but I relate it because I've always found that to be very compelling. New Testament Christians are not to give based upon any law, which is compulsion, but out of grace by the leading of Christ.

The early church, as we see in Acts and the Epistles, were very giving. This is the result of truly following Christ and not attempting to use our own reasoning.

We read of Peter confronting the husband and wife who sold property and proclaimed to give the whole price to the church when they didn't. When Peter confronted them he didn't tell them they only had to give a tithe (10%) and the rest (90%) they could have done with as they pleased. Peter told them the entire amount was theirs to do with as they would. Had they given any amount, or none at all, and done so honestly, Peter would not have confronted them and they would not have been condemned to death.

We are to accept Christ as Lord, that means turning to Him in everything and obeying Him in everything. This includes our giving, whatever amount He would have us to give, this is what we should give, for His glory and honour.

quote: "I'm sure I didn't tell the story as well as McGee, but I relate it because I've always found that to be very compelling. New Testament Christians are not to give based upon any law, which is compulsion, but out of grace by the leading of Christ.
"

"Compulsion"? What other parts of obeying the Lord are "compulsion"? The verses I quoted in my past post, talked of giving equally, so that none is overburdened and another not giving at all. If all give the same percentage, no matter what their income, they are giving equally, and the precedent had already been set for 10%, which was the bear minimum. Remember though that the word "tithe" means "the tenth", and God set the standard, not men. Of course we should give with the right attitude, and not grudgingly, but we don't even do that with prayer, but that's another issue.

Someone mentioned "Grace giving" which (I believe) is a term coined by John McArthur, who does not believe in tithing, the KJB, or the blood atonement! God help those who follow him.

Here are those verses again:

2Co 8:11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
2Co 8:13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Co 8:14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
2Co 8:15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.


I believe that "grace giving" is an excuse not to tithe. It is hard to part with our money when things are not going well, and giving "by grace" will sooth our conscience when it doesn't equal even 10%. Edited August 26, 2010 by irishman

[Brother Rick]

I know we're talking about tithing here, but I wanted to briefly interject something about supporting missions.

I think one of the most, if not the most harmful thing a Christian can do to their country today is stop supporting missions. I want the mercy of God on our country, and I think the number one reason why He is merciful to us as a nation is because America sends more missionaries out than any other country. If American Christians get stingy during this time and stop supporting missions, it could go from bad to worse.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Anon]

I know we're talking about tithing here, but I wanted to briefly interject something about supporting missions.

I think one of the most, if not the most harmful thing a Christian can do to their country today is stop supporting missions. I want the mercy of God on our country, and I think the number one reason why He is merciful to us as a nation is because America sends more missionaries out than any other country. If American Christians get stingy during this time and stop supporting missions, it could go from bad to worse.

....and everyone has to do their part. No fair saying "Well I have more kids....so I'll just let other people pay missions. I can't afford it."

Can't God provide for us if we try to provide for Him?

(Just agreeing!)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Better read Hebrews 7:4 again. It does not say 'even of the spoils, it says 'even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.' The Word 'even' qualifies the person, not the event. The 'all' in Hebrews 7:2 is the spoils of war. Read the context of the passage both here and in the Genesis account.

To say Abraham tithed anything more than the spoils of war is to add to the Word of God that which is not there.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Someone mentioned "Grace giving" which (I believe) is a term coined by John McArthur, who does not believe in tithing, the KJB, or the blood atonement! God help those who follow him.

Here are those verses again:

2Co 8:11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
2Co 8:13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Co 8:14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
2Co 8:15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.


I believe that "grace giving" is an excuse not to tithe. It is hard to part with our money when things are not going well, and giving "by grace" will sooth our conscience when it doesn't equal even 10%.

2 Corinthians 8 certainly says nothing of tithing.

Grace giving was taught by Paul, (although he did not use those precise words in his teaching it.)
2 Corinthians 9:7 (KJV) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

As every man makes a decision to give a certain amount, that one is to give cheerfully. To give cheerfully, is to give with grace.

But the fact remains, one is to give as that one decides, not as someone else thinks he or she should give. If he gives as he decides to give, and gives faithfully, God will be pleased with that whether it is 1%, 5%, 10% or any percent between 1 and 100.

[Anon]

I honestly do not believe God would be pleased with 1%. God wants our first and best, not our leftovers.

If we are to be a "living sacrifice" I assume that means sacrificing in all walks of life, including our paychecks.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I honestly do not believe God would be pleased with 1%. God wants our first and best, not our leftovers.

If we are to be a "living sacrifice" I assume that means sacrificing in all walks of life, including our paychecks.

God wants our hearts first and foremost. My income and living situation would not allow me to give 10% of my money to the Church. Sometimes we are unable to give even 3%. If the Church has a problem with that, it is their problem. God is pleased with whatever His children are able to do for Him.

Tithes were never first in the Old Testament. It is not God who wants our first and best, it is the Church.

In Leviticus, God wanted the tenth cattle that passed under the rod, not the first. And God told Moses that that tenth cattle was not to be exchanged whether it was the best or not.

Leviticus 27:32 (KJV) And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Leviticus 27:33 (KJV) He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

So much for the first and best theory. Edited August 26, 2010 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Anon]

Have you ever tried giving 10% and see what God does for you?

I know when we do the numbers we can't believe how much we are able to give to God (NOT patting ourselves on the back) and still be able to afford everything we afford. But it all works out.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Have you ever tried giving 10% and see what God does for you?

I know when we do the numbers we can't believe how much we are able to give to God (NOT patting ourselves on the back) and still be able to afford everything we afford. But it all works out.

Sure, we could give 10% of our income. But this would mean we do without food and medications for the month and gas to get back and forth to Church.

God does not expect 10% from anyone unless they have vowed to give Him 10%.

Don't judge the poor unless you have walked in their shoes. Edited August 26, 2010 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Anon]

Sure, we could give 10% of our income. But this would mean we do without food and medications for the month and gas to get back and forth to Church.

God does not expect 10% from anyone unless they have vowed to give Him 10%.

Don't judge the poor unless you have walked in their shoes.

Oh believe me, I have. Totally have. The first year of our marriage we ended up totally unemployed...had nothing.

But we've always given God His first. Tithes and offerings come out of the check first (if there is a check...if not, God knows that) and then the rest gets budgeted for needs and bills.

This week I had to stretch the budget...because we had to buy an expensive drug for one of my sons. But God's money came out first. We give God His...and God has to figure out how to provide food and medicine and extras for our family with four boys. And so far He hasn't let us down.

[John81]

I know we're talking about tithing here, but I wanted to briefly interject something about supporting missions.

I think one of the most, if not the most harmful thing a Christian can do to their country today is stop supporting missions. I want the mercy of God on our country, and I think the number one reason why He is merciful to us as a nation is because America sends more missionaries out than any other country. If American Christians get stingy during this time and stop supporting missions, it could go from bad to worse.

We help support missionaries through our church and also a missionary in India.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Oh believe me, I have. Totally have. The first year of our marriage we ended up totally unemployed...had nothing.

But we've always given God His first. Tithes and offerings come out of the check first (if there is a check...if not, God knows that) and then the rest gets budgeted for needs and bills.

This week I had to stretch the budget...because we had to buy an expensive drug for one of my sons. But God's money came out first. We give God His...and God has to figure out how to provide food and medicine and extras for our family with four boys. And so far He hasn't let us down.

I find only one instance in the New Testament of the Disciples giving money, and that was to the local government, not the Temple. And they had to fish for that money (Matthew 17:27)

God never told the people of the Old Testament to give Him their money. He wanted tithes of crops, flocks and herds. He wanted meat offerings. He wanted sin offerings that were to be killed and burned. Wave offerings of grain and that which could be grown.

Abraham was rich in gold and yet there is no instance in the Word of God that says he gave any of it to the Tabernacle.
When gold was used in the Tabernacle, it was not used for paying bills and such, it was beaten down and used to cover the ark, and other objects of the Tabernacle.

God isn't after our money. He wants our hearts. The 2-3% that I am able to give (sometimes less) is just as much to God as the 10-15% that others give... because I give what I am able to give and from the heart. Edited August 26, 2010 by Standing Firm In Christ