Jump to content
Online Baptist
  • Welcome Guest

    Tired of all the fighting that goes on in facebook groups? Are you ready for a community where you can talk about things of God and the Bible without getting branded a heretic? Well, we are glad you found us. Why don't you give us a try and see how friendly and different we are. - BroMatt

Standing Firm In Christ

Will A Man Rob God?

Recommended Posts




Yeah it does...on Sunday, they laid by their LIBERAL offerings aside and let it collect every Sunday until Paul came to get the missions offering when he came. Or rather his courier came and got it with an armoured truck. haha sorry just kidding...anyway...yeah that's what I meant...on Sunday's they gave their offering...a generous one...and collected it and it was used for other churches. Of course other verses also support paying the pastor full time, and such...and nowadays we have building costs...but its all the same thing.

I have a hard time believing that "liberal" giving was even less than 10%, since Jews were used to giving 10%.


I'm pointing out that here they were not collecting it to be used through that local church, but they sent it to Jerusalem. This is an example of the local church doctrine not being what was going on. This was at the time of the apostles, and the churches weren't divided. Even so, its percular for a local church to be collecting for the saints at another - unless it was a fund for all the saints being re-distributed through Jerusalem. Its a verse that bears studying more. I know I will later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


But they were gathering it at their local "church" (assembly) and saving it up for another church (missions).


I don't think they are talking about missionaries here. It says for the saints not missionaries. Other verses appear
to show that the church took care of its own back then. FYI when you give your decision power over money to another
church, you aren't acting like a local community of believers only. In any case, the missionaries weren't from
that church or being used through that church. They were giving it whole heartedly to Jerusalem to be used however. Edited by MaxKennedy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Do I sense a bit of "Name it, claim it" here?


I did somewhere on the thread. That is why I posted that those who teach the harvest is money, instead of God's
harvest is a harvest of souls, are robbing God, from the exact same verses. Edited by MaxKennedy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



I don't think they are talking about missionaries here. It says for the saints not missionaries. Other verses appear
to show that the church took care of its own back then. FYI when you give your decision power over money to another
church, you aren't acting like a local community of believers only. In any case, the missionaries weren't from
that church or being used through that church. They were giving it whole heartedly to Jerusalem to be used however.


This is missions though...In missions you are giving it to a foreign pastor to be used in his church/build a church....either way, the church out there, be it 5 people or 50, doesn't have the money so American churches provide that.

Actually Jerusalem was poor because of the "all things in common" thing they did....communal living never works....and so they became poverty stricken after a few years of that...so the other churches were pitching in to help.

However they did it, the point can still be made that NT christians most likely gave FAR above 10% of their income.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a hard time believing that "liberal" giving was even less than 10%, since Jews were used to giving 10%.

The Jews were used to giving 10% of their crops, flocks, and herds. They were not used to giving 10% of their money because their money was not tithed according to the Old Testament.

And not all Jews were used to giving 10%, only those Jews that were farmers and herders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually Jerusalem was poor because of the "all things in common" thing they did....communal living never works....and so they became poverty stricken after a few years of that...so the other churches were pitching in to help.


Uhm, ok lol. However, they were rich in heavenly treasure because they gave 100% of what they had.

So Katagrl, since giving more then 10% is important, how about 100%?

I've got a verse for you that could be applied here:

Matthew 17:24-27
24And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? 25He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? 26Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. 27Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites




that is probably why you are poor, because you will not trust God to provide!


Wow, I've stayed out of this discussion, but that comment was unkind and uncalled for. Really not what I would expect from a Christian. There are lots of reasons for financial hardships, especially in this economy. God does promise to provide for our needs, but he does not promise that we won't be poor or that we will not have financial hardships. I have not read where Standing Firm has indicated that he hasn't had his needs provided for or that he hasn't prayed for and trusted in God to provide. That is what we are promised, our needs provided for, not earthly material riches.

Before we start condemning others let's remember that God asks different things of each of us. We are not all called to give the same amount or serve in the same way. However, God uses each of us for a unique purpose and his grace is truly a wonderful thing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those of you can get on irishman if you like but sometimes the truth hurts. Someone has already asked if StandingFirm has even tried to give 10% or stepped out there in faith but he has not answered except to say if he did that he wouldn't eat and his family wouldn't eat. That's not the question, the question is have you TRIED to take that step of faith and give 10%. If you have not, then how can you say it's not possible except by only looking at it from a worldly view? I gotta say, I wasn't extemely happy with the amount God gave me to give to missions...I didn't feel I could afford it at all (it was 4 times more than I had ever given). Since then, we've been given two instances to take vacations (where we haven't had a vacation before that in several years).

But, if you can't cheerfully give 10% then I guess I can understand the hesitancy. Either way, shouldn't our faith keep us cheerful anyway and through both faith and cheer we can give much more than we do.

It really has nothing to do with poor or rich...it's a percentage...not a flat rate.

Lastly, whether you believe in the 10% or not I still think we should give to God first (as others have mentioned) - if you need to...treat it as taxes like you never see it and work with a budget from the monies you get after God's portion and the Government's portion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those of you can get on irishman if you like but sometimes the truth hurts. Someone has already asked if StandingFirm has even tried to give 10% or stepped out there in faith but he has not answered except to say if he did that he wouldn't eat and his family wouldn't eat. That's not the question, the question is have you TRIED to take that step of faith and give 10%. If you have not, then how can you say it's not possible except by only looking at it from a worldly view? I gotta say, I wasn't extemely happy with the amount God gave me to give to missions...I didn't feel I could afford it at all (it was 4 times more than I had ever given). Since then, we've been given two instances to take vacations (where we haven't had a vacation before that in several years).

But, if you can't cheerfully give 10% then I guess I can understand the hesitancy. Either way, shouldn't our faith keep us cheerful anyway and through both faith and cheer we can give much more than we do.

It really has nothing to do with poor or rich...it's a percentage...not a flat rate.

Lastly, whether you believe in the 10% or not I still think we should give to God first (as others have mentioned) - if you need to...treat it as taxes like you never see it and work with a budget from the monies you get after God's portion and the Government's portion.

I have not tried to give 10% because God has not told me to give 10%.

Maybe it is nothing for you to give 10%, but for me, it is an impossibility. And it is wrong of you, or anyone else to accuse me of not having faith because I do not give 10%.

As a matter of fact, it is arrogance to say the least to tell me I must try to give that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both the righteous and unrighteous experience wealth, poverty and everything in between. Neither wealth nor poverty is a reflection upon ones stand in Christ.

There is no Scripture proclaiming a tithe for Christians. The tithe, which Scripture declares, was a common to OT Jews and was not for the purpose which churches have use of.

If everyone gave as the Lord leads, no doubt our churches would have an abundance of funds. The New Testament declares that when we have an abundance we should be giving more and when a time arrives when we have less, others will give more.

In a land such as America where most of our lives are filled with wants, wants and more wants, it's likely most professing Christians would be called of God to give more than they are if they were to seek His will in this.

God wants our hearts, and if we submit our hearts to Christ, seek His guidance in all things, absolutely including our giving, then we can trust the amount the Lord would have us to give is the perfect amount and that what we have left will be enough, and often as not more than enough, to provide all our needs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.
The information Paul dispensed in his epistles is Christ's law.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . . We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

I'm thoroughly disgusted with the people on this topic disobeying the Lord's wishes as per the 14th chapter of Romans.

†. Rom 14:1 . . Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

The koiné Greek word for "doubtful" is dialogismos (dee-al-og-is-mos') which means: discussion; viz: debate.

The word for "disputations" is diakrisis (dee-ak'-ree-sis) which means: judicial estimation; viz: one's opinions.

I can only conclude, from the ongoing debating and quarreling about tithing between people of the Christian faith that they are neither friends nor lovers of the Lord; but rather friends and lovers of their own selves.

†. John 14:15 . . If ye love me, keep my commandments.

†. John 14:21 . . He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

†. John 14:23 . . If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

†. John 15:14 . .Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

When you identify yourself as someone's follower, it means you are professing yourself to be in step with them.

†. 1John 1:6 . . If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth

To be fair, it needs to be pointed out that the Lord's wishes stipulated in the 14th chapter of Romans apply only to his followers. So if some of you out there are not his followers, then by all means feel free to ignore what I'm saying. But followers debating with followers about a personal issue like tithing is unacceptable; and that goes for any other personal issue too; e.g. video games, music, fashions, cosmetics, diet, movies, self defense, swim suits, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, fasting, religious paintings, Bible versions, crucifixes, and holy days of obligation. Those are all matters of personal opinion rather than black and white regulations; and therefore it's a sin for the Lord's followers to debate those issues among themselves.

†. 1Cor 15:34 . . Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I have not tried to give 10% because God has not told me to give 10%.

Maybe it is nothing for you to give 10%, but for me, it is an impossibility. And it is wrong of you, or anyone else to accuse me of not having faith because I do not give 10%.

As a matter of fact, it is arrogance to say the least to tell me I must try to give that much.


God told you to give liberally and gave 10% as a pretty obvious starting point in HIS WORD so yeah He did tell you...but maybe you just didn't listen....

Dennis...AMEN!!!! I'm so happy for your vacations!!!!! I agree...God's money is without question...goes out first...then God helps you manage the rest.

I knew a family personally who decided they could not afford to tithe or give to missions...and they knew better (not baby Christians although at times they acted like it!). They started racking up medical bills, their car kept breaking....they never "had" any "money" (quotes because, certain reasons and long story, we knew they should have had enough money to make ends meet....). Meanwhile they thought WE had plenty of money. Eh...yeah God provides...but we weren't overflowing money, sheesh, we're in the ministry! But we practiced generous giving and God gives back to us. And we have ALOT of bills with our family.

We've had VERY lean times too...I'm not touting a prosperity gospel....I'm not saying that God makes you rich if you give...but I'm saying God teaches a baseline of 10% all through the Bible and then giving above that cheerfully. Did you notice God doesn't say a cheerful tither? The tithe is the Lords. We give it no matter what. We give ABOVE that, cheerfully. God says we are a living sacrifice....God said we are unprofitable servants who do everything we do because its our duty, to HIM. God says He takes care of the birds of the field...why can't He take care of us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.
The information Paul dispensed in his epistles is Christ's law.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . . We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

I'm thoroughly disgusted with the people on this topic disobeying the Lord's wishes as per the 14th chapter of Romans.

†. Rom 14:1 . . Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

The koiné Greek word for "doubtful" is dialogismos (dee-al-og-is-mos') which means: discussion; viz: debate.

The word for "disputations" is diakrisis (dee-ak'-ree-sis) which means: judicial estimation; viz: one's opinions.

I can only conclude, from the ongoing debating and quarreling about tithing between people of the Christian faith that they are neither friends nor lovers of the Lord; but rather friends and lovers of their own selves.

†. John 14:15 . . If ye love me, keep my commandments.

†. John 14:21 . . He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

†. John 14:23 . . If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

†. John 15:14 . .Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

When you identify yourself as someone's follower, it means you are professing yourself to be in step with them.

†. 1John 1:6 . . If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth

To be fair, it needs to be pointed out that the Lord's wishes stipulated in the 14th chapter of Romans apply only to his followers. So if some of you out there are not his followers, then by all means feel free to ignore what I'm saying. But followers debating with followers about a personal issue like tithing is unacceptable; and that goes for any other personal issue too; e.g. video games, music, fashions, cosmetics, diet, movies, self defense, swim suits, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, fasting, religious paintings, Bible versions, crucifixes, and holy days of obligation. Those are all matters of personal opinion rather than black and white regulations; and therefore it's a sin for the Lord's followers to debate those issues among themselves.

†. 1Cor 15:34 . . Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

C.L.I.F.F.
/


For the true follower of Christ there are no "personal issues". All our lives, all we think and all we do are to be under the Lordship of Christ and for the glory of God.

Our giving is not a "personal issue" but rather something God says we are to do cheerfully as God leads in our heart.

Entertainment is not a "personal issue", God provides all we need to know in His Word to select proper entertainment and to know what is ungodly.

The same goes for all other issues. Our lives are not our own, we were bought with a price and we owe our total submisstion to Christ in all things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amen, John81. I find it difficult to talk on such a hallowed subject when so many people are prone to excuse themselves from it, and make provision for the flesh.

By the way, those who have called me un-Christian for saying that a man might be poor because he doesn't tithe, had better look inside themselves and see who is judging whom! I stand on, and firmly believe what I said, because I didn't always tithe; I too tried going it without tithing at one point in life, but never could make ends meet. It didn't make sense, but when we began to tithe, things got much better, so, in my life and mind, there is truth to what I said.

You all are going to do things the way you want to anyway, so actually this entire thread is a moot point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

For the true follower of Christ there are no "personal issues".


Personal issues can be defined as matters about which the Lord has not revealed his preferences; thus each Christian is at liberty to follow the dictates of their own conscience. In those situations, the Lord's wishes, as stipulated in the 14th chapter of Romans, are to be followed; five of which are:

†. Rom 14:3 . . Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

†. Rom 14:4 . .Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth.

†. Rom 14:5 . . Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

†. Rom 14:14 . . to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

†. Rom 14:22 . . Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Do you trust Baptist pastors? Look in the yellow pages for a Baptist church in your area and make an appointment with a pastor to have him explain the principles regulating personal issues in the 14th chapter of Romans. It doesn't have to be the senior pastor; an associate pastor will do.

C.L.I.F.F.
/ Edited by Webers_Home

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've wondered sometimes whether or not tithing is actually doctrinally correct for the church age saints or not, but I've never really cared enough about it to delve super deep into it and really study it out.

It doesn't make any difference to me, my family is tithing whether we're required to or not. We've tithed when we have money and when we don't, the result is the same, God takes care of us and He blesses us. Even if He doesn't bless us, and we lose our home and everything else, it doesn't change who He is. He is still a wonderful, gracious, merciful God who's given me and my family much more than we ever would deserve.

Whether or not we're supposed to is a moot point, we're tithing anyways, and we're giving to missions.

Edited by Rick Schworer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've wondered sometimes whether or not tithing is actually doctrinally correct for the church age saints or not, but I've never really cared enough about it to delve super deep into it and really study it out.

It doesn't make any difference to me, my family is tithing whether we're required to or not. We've tithed when we have money and when we don't, the result is the same, God takes care of us and He blesses us. Even if He doesn't bless us, and we lose our home and everything else, it doesn't change who He is. He is still a wonderful, gracious, merciful God who's given me and my family much more than we ever would deserve.

Whether or not we're supposed to is a moot point, we're tithing anyways, and we're giving to missions.


Very true...

But we can all agree that the pastor is supposed to, Biblically, be supported by the church.

Which means some sort of giving has to be taking place.

The Jews were used to 10% as law. Grace means being a living sacrifice. I don't understand, for the life of me, how that could mean that we now have the "freedom" to just keep our income and dole out bits and pieces as we "feel led".

But hey whatever floats people's boats...I've just seen time and time again that you "can't outgive God" and the people who gave less often had the less...and the people who gave most shouldn't have had the most but often they were much more blessed than those who didn't at least trust God with 10%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

God never told me to give 10%. He never gave 10% as a baseline for my giving. The 10% rule was confined to the borders of national Israel. The 10% was not to be required of anyone living outside of national Israel, nor was anyone that was not a Levite authorized by God to receive the tithe.

Sorry, God's Word is right, those who say 10% is required of everyone are wrong.

I could personally take you to a person who gave her alleged 'tithe' that preachers had deceived her into believing it was required of her by God. She gave this alleged 'tithe' for more than 40 years of her life. Today, she is hardly getting around. This past winter, she fell leaving her house to go to church to 'pay her tithes' and broke her back. Two years ago, she had to go bankrupt. I sat down and figured it out some time back, and she has given the church more than $50,000 in her lifetime because she believed the lie that God required it of her that was preached from the pulpit of a pastor that failed to properly study the Word of God.

Is she bitter? No. She still loves the Lord as much as she ever has.

But the fact is, had she not been put under a fear of being cursed from the preachers over the last 40 years, she may not have had that fall in which she broke her back last winter. Her main reason for going out the door was that she had to pay her tithes.

I believe many a preacher will have to answer to God for their oppression of His people in the area of finances.

I might also add that this woman is a widow and for many of those years lived miles away from her children. The Church should have been supporting her according to Paul's instructions in 1st Timothy, not her supporting the Church.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The New Testament Scriptures do NOT dictate a universal percentage or dollar amount to be given back to God. We are commanded, as a starting point, to give according to that which we are ABLE to give. God's Word tells us to give "as God hath prospered him" (1 Corinthians 16:2). Scripture also states that everyone should give "as he purposeth in his heart". (2 Corinthians 9:7) If 10% is what you purpose in your heart to give, then give 100% of that 10%....but nowhere does it say in God's Word that everyone should give 10%, and for anyone to state that ALL believers are to "tithe" 10% is going beyond what Scripture dictates.

The Word of God tells us to give "willingly and cheerfully" to the work of the Lord. Everything we possess already belongs to God. We are only stewards of that which He has entrusted to us.

Edited by LindaR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Oppression?"


Okay.

Yes, oppression.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines 'oppression':

OPPRES'SION, n.

1. The act of oppressing; the imposition of unreasonable burdens, either in taxes or services; cruelty; severity.

2. The state of being oppressed or overburdened; misery.

the Lord - saw the oppression of Israel. 2Kings. 8.

3. Hardship; calamity.

4. Depression; dullness of spirits; lassitude of body.

5. A sense of heaviness or weight in the breast, &c.

Those who teach their congregations to 'tithe' their money are indeed guilty of the first definition of oppression because God never required the tithe of those living outside of National Israel. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
God never told me to give 10%. He never gave 10% as a baseline for my giving. The 10% rule was confined to the borders of national Israel. The 10% was not to be required of anyone living outside of national Israel, nor was anyone that was not a Levite authorized by God to receive the tithe.

Sorry, God's Word is right, those who say 10% is required of everyone are wrong.

I could personally take you to a person who gave her alleged 'tithe' that preachers had deceived her into believing it was required of her by God. She gave this alleged 'tithe' for more than 40 years of her life. Today, she is hardly getting around. This past winter, she fell leaving her house to go to church to 'pay her tithes' and broke her back. Two years ago, she had to go bankrupt. I sat down and figured it out some time back, and she has given the church more than $50,000 in her lifetime because she believed the lie that God required it of her that was preached from the pulpit of a pastor that failed to properly study the Word of God.

Is she bitter? No. She still loves the Lord as much as she ever has.

But the fact is, had she not been put under a fear of being cursed from the preachers over the last 40 years, she may not have had that fall in which she broke her back last winter. Her main reason for going out the door was that she had to pay her tithes.

I believe many a preacher will have to answer to God for their oppression of His people in the area of finances.



The church should help her out and take care of her.

I Tim. 5:16, "If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed."

For every one situation like this, there are many more where God provided for the people and their needs were taken care of. Not to mention we don't know this lady's whole story, we're just getting your take on it. Many times people think they can't afford to give, but that's because they spend needlessly. Many people from my parents generation (baby boomers) didn't think about the future and save or invest, and now they're in trouble.

Personally, God's always taken care of us. I have an 805 credit score even though I make around 60% less than I did before college, three children, and a car loan. Last time I tried to refi our SUV, it blew them away, they had no idea how we manage to pay our bills with our debt to income ratio and maintain good credit. It's God.

I do agree with you on one point though, If I were a pastor, I personally wouldn't compel people to tithe/give out of fear of being cursed, the motive in the New Testament is that of joy and sacrifice. Edited by Rick Schworer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 10 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online



×