Members John81 Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Have you ever done this? Stepped out "in faith" and God supplied ALL your needs? I have and fell flat on my Balaams talking ass. And don't tell me that my faith wasn't sufficient or I wasn't called, etc. God is not some magical Wizard that turns lead into gold (though I know He can) whenever His people need financial or any other support. He relies on the work of His people to support His work in this world. If His people don't supply the needs of His workers He is not going to suddenly start dropping manna from heaven again. I certainly can't speak to whatever situation you mention above, but God has indeed promised to supply all our needs and God does not lie. Our needs may not be met how, in the way or exactly when we think they should be, but God will, without a doubt, supply our needs. One of the problems we run into is thinking we need more than we actually do, or thinking we need something different than what we actually need. God know exactly what we need, when we need it, and He will provide. This I've seen in not only my own life, but many others over the years. As Esther was told when she hesitated to do what God was calling her to do, if she didn't do it, God would certainly raise someone else up to rightly deal with the situation. The same is true of any of God's people fail to act when he calls upon them. If God calls upon me to hand a missionary a hundred dollars and I fail to do so, if that missionary needs that hundred dollars, God will get to him through another, more faithful follower of Christ. In my life I've gone without a lot of wants. I've also discovered over the years that sometimes what I thought I needed was actually a want. I've thought a need could only be met one way, but found God to supply it another. Through it all, God has never failed to meet my every need. Dr. John R. Rice's book, "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" addresses this very well. swathdiver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Standing Firm In Christ Posted Today, 12:50 AM When God tells me to give to a missionary, I will be sure to give to one. As yet, He has not. When God tells me to give 10% of my income to a Church, I will do just that. As yes, He has not. When God tells me to take medical advice from someone who is not qualified to give such advice, I will. As yet, He hasn't. Standing Firm In Christ Posted Today, 12:52 AM Scripture tells us to give as God has prospered us. Note that word "prospered". It is past tense. God does not want us to give what we don't have. He doesn't want us to promise to give what we don't have. That shoots down another recent doctrine... faith promise. I believe this is the summary of your thoughts on giving above. Which would again allow me to summarize my own thoughts on giving and be done. Romans 12:9,10,13 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; 13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. (No matter what the definition used, such as...deputation.) Philippians 4:14-18 14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. 15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. 16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. (Fruit that may abound to your account, now how could that be?) John 4:36-38 One more refutation for your doctrine of self.Scripture tells us to give as God has prospered us. Note that word "prospered". It is past tense. Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. The above describes sacrificial faith giving and please notice “give” is in the present tense and “given” is in the future tense. Brother, God loves us both. Thank the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2Tim215 Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 I certainly can't speak to whatever situation you mention above, but God has indeed promised to supply all our needs and God does not lie. Our needs may not be met how, in the way or exactly when we think they should be, but God will, without a doubt, supply our needs. One of the problems we run into is thinking we need more than we actually do, or thinking we need something different than what we actually need. God know exactly what we need, when we need it, and He will provide. This I've seen in not only my own life, but many others over the years. Very true John, also very difficult for a man to deal with when he sees those he loves struggling with urgent needs that he can not meet because God is "taking His time" as He often does for His own purposes. As Esther was told when she hesitated to do what God was calling her to do, if she didn't do it, God would certainly raise someone else up to rightly deal with the situation. Also true The same is true of any of God's people fail to act when he calls upon them. If God calls upon me to hand a missionary a hundred dollars and I fail to do so, if that missionary needs that hundred dollars, God will get to him through another, more faithful follower of Christ. This in my experience has not always been the case, sometimes believers are more stingy than the worldly rich. Most only give because they think they will get something back from God. In my life I've gone without a lot of wants. I've also discovered over the years that sometimes what I thought I needed was actually a want. I've thought a need could only be met one way, but found God to supply it another. Through it all, God has never failed to meet my every need. Yes, our needs are often wants, but there is nothing wrong with wanting something if it isn't unbiblical - a home, transport, etc. Sometimes God's idea of our needs is nothing more than some bread and meat and some water (1 Kings 17) a little less than what most of us can live with. Dr. John R. Rice's book, "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" addresses this very well. I grew up on the old classics of missionaries that lived by faith alone in secret without man knowing there needs - only making there needs known to God in secret and these needs were met in abundance. I wished for a life of such closeness with God, but in my experience in this world with believers, churches, missionaries and "living by faith" what these authors wrote of is always wonderful and uplifting in hindsight, but never easy, practical or even true in reality - that is why we have this prosperity movement where the church has become a business and the office of pastor has become a career. I often joke with my wife and say that if we wanted a wealthy lifestyle all I need to do is start a charismatic man pleasing church and we would have all we ever wanted, but in my heart of hearts I know too much truth to ever be able to do this and sleep at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Non-answer....evasion....dodging...Glad you are admitting that you are dodging the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 That is not the point I was driving at....I Corinthians 9 is crystal clear when it comes to the church's obligation to support their pastor. In order for them to be able to support their pastor, they must have some type of systematic collections - more than "whatever I have left over." The pastor does not take a "vow of poverty" in the Bible, as the RCC priests claim they do (and they are liars.)Nowhere did I say the pastor is not to be provided for. You try to twist what I have said concerning the unbiblical doctrine of tithing to the Church into something I never said. I am 100% for providing for the pastor if there is a need. But so many twist 1 Corinthians 9's passage out of context to mean tithes when it is clear Paul never intended such a doctrine to be taught. But while we are on 1 Corinthians 9, let's look at your prooftext, shall we? If I am no mistaken, it is verse 9, correct?1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Why was the instruction given not to muzzle the mouth of the ox? So it could eat, correct? I worked on a farm back in the early 70's and have seen how the ox that pulled the plow was allowed the freedom to bend down its head and eat of the grass that was next to the garden. I have seen the ox bend down in harvesting season and partake of the corn that had fallen. I understand why Moses gave the command not to muzzle the ox and why Paul echoed that command. But I also understand that that ox had to use his strength to bend down and get the grass and the grain. The farmer did not walk before the ox and pick the food up and feed it to him. No, the ox did all that. And so did Paul. Paul did not wait for the Church to send him money. He tells us in the passages I provided much earlier that he worked with his hands for his provision and for the provision of his company. 1 Corinthians 9 is not an excuse for lazy pastors. No, it clearly reveals that the pastor works for his provision. Paul reveals in Acts 120 that the Church is to "support the weak", he does not instruct them to support a pastor who won't work. And the fact that the ox is not muzzled reveals that the pastor needs to work for his wages as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Your answer makes absolutely no sense, especially in view of Hebrews 7. You have erected a false exegesis of Genesis 14 to clear yourself of any obligations to the Lord when it comes to giving. But your false exegesis of Genesis 14 creates a problem. Where else in the Bible is a WICKED PERSON a type of Jesus Christ? IT is not only absurd, it is borderline blasphemous. You continue to refuse discussing Hebrews 7 in regards to just exactly who Melchizedek was. If Paul states that he was the "priest of the most high God," then that should confirm that he was not a Baalite priest. And again, I am not proposing that he was a "pre-incarnate" appearance of Christ. I don't believe that. He was a man, a king, a priest - but he you have offered no proof FROM SCRIPTURE that he was an idolator, a pagan, etc. All you have done is (1) ignore plain statements from Scripture, and (2) appeal to MEN and their COMMENTARIES for your proof. So you can insist all you want to that Melchizedek was a Baalite - but you are absolutely, positively WRONG about it - because the BIBLE declares differently. And if you are wrong about Melchizedek (and you are!), then it casts doubt on your position about tithing and giving. What a double standard! You rail on us for our position on tithing and giving, saying it is not scriptural - yet your conclusion about Melchizedek is BLATANTLY unscriptural!!! I have nothing else to say on this topic, so.... Goodbye In Christ,You refuse to admit that the tithe has been disannulled as Hebrews 7 clearly states. You refuse to admit that Abram's tithe was not taken to a Church/Temple/Tabernacle. You refuse to admit that Melchizedek was not a Christophany, that he was an established king of an area that was pagan. Have you actually done any historical research on Salem in the time of Melchizedek? I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Trusting God to provide can and will work. When did God change? Doesn't HIs Word tell us He cannot lie? If all our Missionaries were like George Muller, what a witness of God's Almighty hand at work would be seen! George didn't ask other Churches to provide for the needs of his orphanage, yet there was always supply. Once, when Muller had emptied the pantries and had no food, he sat the children down at the table anyway. And five minutes before the food was to be served, there was a knock at the door. God had laid it on someones heart to take food to the orphanage! And although Muller's orphanage was constantly growing, (at one time more than 1500 children in it) God always met the need. Missionaries could see the same work of God if they would obey Him and go in faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2Tim215 Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 1 Corinthians 9 is not an excuse for lazy pastors. No, it clearly reveals that the pastor works for his provision. Paul reveals in Acts 120 that the Church is to "support the weak", he does not instruct them to support a pastor who won't work. And the fact that the ox is not muzzled reveals that the pastor needs to work for his wages as well. Show me where in this day and age a pastor can both work and provide for all the needs of a church. It's difficult enough to find work never mind a job that would allow for the freedom required to pastor a church. And in what world is a pastors calling not "work"? It's easy to sit in a pew and be spoon fed while you enjoy the luxury of a paying job and think that a pastor does nothing but preach a few times a week. I would rather work for a paying tyrant than a thankless church, and believe me, a pastors life is hard and often thankless and churches can be brutal, bullying and hurtful. Paul had a trained and needed skill, he was his own boss and few these days have the opportunity to be able to afford the privilege of being their own boss - these days working for yourself requires far more hours than the average job to meet the required costs. Do you preach full time and hold a job too? If not then you have no place calling pastors lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 A good friend of mine who is a pastor of a church in PA doesn't pass an offering plate around. He has a box in the back and if people want to give they give what they can. He rarely preaches on giving. Not only does God take care of his little church (about 60 members max) but he has been able to throw his support behind a few missionaries. Here's his church. If you are ever in his area check it out.http://countrychapel...om/default.aspx Our church doesn't pass a plate around. We have a box each side at the back. We do not mention offerings. We used to print the monthly offering on our news sheet, but now we just announce them at the quarterly members meeting. When we stopped sending a plate around, people said the offerings would go down. In fact they increased. We believ the church should be supported by its members not visitors, especially unbelieving visitors. We do not have a pastor at present but we do have visiting preachers who we pay travelling excpenses as well as a gift. We also support 2 overseas missionaries. We have about 28 members. I do not consider deputation work to be begging. We have missionaries at time, apart from those we support financially, and we give them more than a normal preacher, but we consider their visits more as a means to keep us in touch with their work than a begging bowl. Steve Schwenke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2Tim215 Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Trusting God to provide can and will work. When did God change? Doesn't HIs Word tell us He cannot lie? If all our Missionaries were like George Muller, what a witness of God's Almighty hand at work would be seen! George didn't ask other Churches to provide for the needs of his orphanage, yet there was always supply. Once, when Muller had emptied the pantries and had no food, he sat the children down at the table anyway. And five minutes before the food was to be served, there was a knock at the door. God had laid it on someones heart to take food to the orphanage! And although Muller's orphanage was constantly growing, (at one time more than 1500 children in it) God always met the need. Missionaries could see the same work of God if they would obey Him and go in faith. It's easy to quote George Muller from an armchair and make broad confident statements like "Missionaries could see the same work of God if they would obey Him and go in faith." Like I said in my earlier post - things always look rosy in hindsight from those that have lived to write the book. Go out on your own in secret and see if your faith will feed you without the backing of the church that God has put into place for a reason. Believe me, I wish it were that simple, that faith would be enough these days to go out and do God's work, that He would miraculously provide your every need. But the sad truth is that we live in a modern world and crazy, ill dressed and homeless preachers living on locusts and honey are not taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Trusting God to provide can and will work. When did God change? Doesn't HIs Word tell us He cannot lie? If all our Missionaries were like George Muller, what a witness of God's Almighty hand at work would be seen! George didn't ask other Churches to provide for the needs of his orphanage, yet there was always supply. Once, when Muller had emptied the pantries and had no food, he sat the children down at the table anyway. And five minutes before the food was to be served, there was a knock at the door. God had laid it on someones heart to take food to the orphanage! And although Muller's orphanage was constantly growing, (at one time more than 1500 children in it) God always met the need. Missionaries could see the same work of God if they would obey Him and go in faith. I've read the biogrphies of this great praying man. But to insinuate that every day was a day filled with the miracoulous is just plain hogwash. Mueller actively persued avenues of sponsership for his orphanage. Please. Do some real homework. God bless, calvary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 I will not step out without God telling me to. When He does, I have no doubt that He will provide. God will take care of His own. If a missionary needs finances, God will put it on someone's heart to give to meet that need. The fact is, God is the same today as He was in Muller's day. Muller's biography reveals that many that attributed to his ministry lived in poverty themselves. Yet God laid it on their hearts to do something. Many would volunteer their services where needed. Many that had goods, gave of those goods, not because Muller asked for that help, but because God was working and spoke to their hearts to give. Even professed atheists gave to that ministry because of Muller's faith and obedience to God. Why can He not work like today? Because of people of little faith. People today don't believe God can meet their need. Sad really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Standing firm in pride... I am saddened by your posts. The temper of them, the brashness of them and the sweeping broad brushing of missions in general of them. I feel sorry for you. I also am a bit offended if I could be honest. You dismiss the last 14 years of my life as a "beggar" who didn't trust God to provide my needs on the mission field. Wow. Just wow. You sir are so far out in the weeds that you've lost your way. God bless, calvary HappyChristian and Steve Schwenke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 George Mueller's biography reveals that he allowed a friend to talk him into seeking help once and that he later regretted not trusting the Lord after all the Lord had done. Sorry, Calvary, but your argument can't be verified through his biography. Nor can it be verified through the movies about him The Obstacle to Comfort and Robber of the Cruel Streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 When you can show me Scripture in which Jesus told the Disciples to take money with them when they went to different cities to proclaim His Gospel, when you can show me that Paul went on deputation prior to either of his three missionary journeys, then I will admit I am in err. As of yet, those verses have not been produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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