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JerryNumbers

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Libertarianism is close to the view which prevailed during the time of the Judges; everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. The Bible declares this is wickedness.


Libertarian minarchy is not the Judaeo-anarchy we find following the death of Joshua. You'll still have government protecting people from rape, murder, theft, and to enforce contracts. Any sin committed against fellow man would not be lawful in a libertarian minarchist society.

I'm also not sure how we can compare the US to Israel. Israel (and Israel alone) was a God-established theocracy- and the Jews (and the Jews alone) were called to follow a very strict Law (the purpose of which was to ultimately point to Christ). We as Christians don't pretend to follow that Law. The US was never established to follow the Law (and I hope it will never be required to follow the law of any religion, particularly I fear Sharia). It was established (in part) to allow everyone to worship God freely. To accomplish this, it was required of the government to be secular. You can't enforce personal morality without seeking religious interference. And we know what happens when government gets involved in religion. If the US were to become a church state, the Biblical interpretation set forth as law will not be in line with our own. Why? Because whatever government does, it does badly.

Our government isn't the solution to sin. It makes a very poor substitute for Christ. Our government is established to set rules to restrict itself and to protect us against domestic or foreign interference so that we can live in liberty and have the freedom to worship God. The more government, the less freedom.

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Laws by their very nature are imposing somebody's morality on others. Abortion changed from murder to a privacy issue, so society now accepts it. Tell a child whose parents were killed by a drunken driver that alcohol is a private matter. Sex outside marriage was outlawed in every state at one time; look at what "staying out of bedroom" has done to our society now.

Now, you may argue that drunkenness and sexual immorality are moral lapses of sinful man. And I would agree. But God established government to punish evil. Who defined evil? God did. God imposed His morality (His holiness) on the nation of Israel and on us as New Testament believers; granted as the Creator, it's His right to do so. But if God was libertarian as defined today, then He wouldn't care what the Israelites did, nor would He care enough to send His Son to the cross.


Alcohol is a private matter. Reckless endangerment turns it into a matter that is anything but private.

Your argument is used often by people who want to enforce a specific moral code on others, but the fact remains that we have certain laws to protect "life, liberty, and property." Outside of this social laws force our own moral convictions that are private on others who may not have the same views. Just look back to the days of prohibition for examples of how this doesn't work.

Again and for the millionth time now, you can't run a government like a church. Government isn't church. Government not enforcing your morals doesn't mean that you can't still hold them. Seriously, if laws have to force people to behave a certain way then their morality is really just a facade anyway. It's just incredibly arrogant to legislate that people act like you think they should, provided their actions do not infringe on the life or property of another.

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Libertarian minarchy is not the Judaeo-anarchy we find following the death of Joshua. You'll still have government protecting people from rape, murder, theft, and to enforce contracts. Any sin committed against fellow man would not be lawful in a libertarian minarchist society.

I'm also not sure how we can compare the US to Israel. Israel (and Israel alone) was a God-established theocracy- and the Jews (and the Jews alone) were called to follow a very strict Law (the purpose of which was to ultimately point to Christ). We as Christians don't pretend to follow that Law. The US was never established to follow the Law (and I hope it will never be required to follow the law of any religion, particularly I fear Sharia). It was established (in part) to allow everyone to worship God freely. To accomplish this, it was required of the government to be secular. You can't enforce personal morality without seeking religious interference. And we know what happens when government gets involved in religion. If the US were to become a church state, the Biblical interpretation set forth as law will not be in line with our own. Why? Because whatever government does, it does badly.

Our government isn't the solution to sin. It makes a very poor substitute for Christ. Our government is established to set rules to restrict itself and to protect us against domestic or foreign interference so that we can live in liberty and have the freedom to worship God. The more government, the less freedom.


The US government was never meant to be much of a factor at all in peoples lives. As originally formed, each State retained their soveriegnty and the States based their laws upon Scripture.

All law is a matter of morality. Whether it's okay to rape or murder is a matter of morality just as whether it's okay to be a prostitute or an adulterer.

Scripture is clear one of the purposes of government is to restrain evil, which is sin. Under the American system, as originally put forth, I agree this isn't the purpose of the Federal government, but of the State governments.

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Alcohol is a private matter. Reckless endangerment turns it into a matter that is anything but private.

Your argument is used often by people who want to enforce a specific moral code on others, but the fact remains that we have certain laws to protect "life, liberty, and property." Outside of this social laws force our own moral convictions that are private on others who may not have the same views. Just look back to the days of prohibition for examples of how this doesn't work.

Again and for the millionth time now, you can't run a government like a church. Government isn't church. Government not enforcing your morals doesn't mean that you can't still hold them. Seriously, if laws have to force people to behave a certain way then their morality is really just a facade anyway. It's just incredibly arrogant to legislate that people act like you think they should, provided their actions do not infringe on the life or property of another.


All laws are based upon one or more moral views. Originally the States laws were based upon Scripture. Since at least the mid-20th century there has been a move to eliminate such laws in favor of the morality of liberal humanism. We have moved from a system much based upon morality as put forth in the Word of God to a system much more based upon the morality
of liberal humanists who believe they should be allowed to do as they please.

What the main point here is that those of us discussing this are all professing Christians. According to Christ, if we are following Him, that means we walk in agreement with Him. The Word of God says a purpose of government is to restrain evil, which is sin. The Word of God says those who profess Christ are to lift up, support and live by His Word.

Again, choose you this day whom you will serve...will you serve God or secular humanism?

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In actual fact, our Constitution was formed as a very Libertarian document. Libertarians stand for limited government - and that is what our federative Republic was designed to be. The founders specifically enumerated the powers of the federal government - not to control citizens, but to control the federal government. Those who were not greatly in favor of the Bill of Rights didn't think it was necessary because the Constitution limited the feds. But there were some very wise heads who knew that if certain things weren't listed, the feds would push beyond (and, boy have they - even with the Bill of Rights). And just in case anyone had any questions, the 9th and 10th amendments were listed to let everyone know that the states had the final power because the PEOPLE would decide.

Now, what would a libertarian view of the Constitution do? Simply: there would be no health care reform because it violates the 10th amendment and it puts power into the hands of the feds that shouldn't be there; there would have been no Roe v. Wade: the Supreme Court would have bounced it back to the state because it is a state by state matter, not federal; the current situation in CA, with gay marriage, would not have gone to court because a referendum by the PEOPLE is well within the federal laws of the land...etc.

All laws have their basis in morality. And communities have the right to decide if they want to have alcohol legal in their area, marijuana legal in their area, abortion, etc. They also have the right to decide if they DON'T want it legal in their community and/or state. That is the beauty of the freedom in which our liberty allows us to function.

And that is actually very compatible with Christianity. How so? Well, if we as Christians win people to Christ and they learn what is right, they become a force for good in laws. Remember Billy Sunday? Everywhere he preached, saloons were closed down after people got saved.

THAT is the way of libertarianism - and THAT is the way God works in our lives...

(please note, though, that I still don't like Ron Paul)

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God's plan isn't libertarian at all. According to God, true freedom comes in abiding by His law. The law is to be there to restrain evil, those in Christ shouldn't even be effected by the laws because they are not involved in such evil.

Libertarianism says there should be no laws against illicit drugs, alochol, prostitution, sexual perversions, "marriage" other than biblical marriage (polygamy, homosexual, child/adult, etc.), racial discrimination, sexual discrimination, etc.

None of this is compatible with Scripture.

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God's plan isn't libertarian at all. According to God, true freedom comes in abiding by His law. The law is to be there to restrain evil, those in Christ shouldn't even be effected by the laws because they are not involved in such evil.

Libertarianism says there should be no laws against illicit drugs, alochol, prostitution, sexual perversions, "marriage" other than biblical marriage (polygamy, homosexual, child/adult, etc.), racial discrimination, sexual discrimination, etc.

None of this is compatible with Scripture.

No they don't say there should be no laws against those: they say there should be no federal laws - and they would be correct (other than laws against bringing stuff like that into the country). The laws are to be made on a local level. At least, the majority of libertarians believe that. I'm sure there are some who would go to the extreme of anarchy, and that I would be against. But the average libertarian is in favor of limited government - which is supposedly what conservatives favor. A true conservative would be more in line with libertarianism than with the GOP...

No, John. According to God, true freedom comes from abiding in Christ. And when Christians do their jOB of witnessing and occupying, the laws of the land will reflect that. The law of the land and God's law are two different things, but your first paragraph seems to make them equal.

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No they don't say there should be no laws against those: they say there should be no federal laws - and they would be correct (other than laws against bringing stuff like that into the country). The laws are to be made on a local level. At least, the majority of libertarians believe that. I'm sure there are some who would go to the extreme of anarchy, and that I would be against. But the average libertarian is in favor of limited government - which is supposedly what conservatives favor. A true conservative would be more in line with libertarianism than with the GOP...

No, John. According to God, true freedom comes from abiding in Christ. And when Christians do their jOB of witnessing and occupying, the laws of the land will reflect that. The law of the land and God's law are two different things, but your first paragraph seems to make them equal.


I've already made it clear in previous posts that the Federal government was formed in a libertarian manner because it was meant to be very limited and weak. The Feds are not to have any say in the matters of most laws, that was left to the States.

Libertarians want libertarian beliefs across the board, from the city hall to the county board to the State government to the Feds. According to their own publications, every aspect of American government should be libertarian.

We can't abide in Christ if we are not OBeying His Word, the two are one and the same. Christians should expect State laws to follow the guideline of Scripture just as they once did. Christians should not support the removing of just laws nor should they support the creation of unjust laws.

Something is wrong when professing Christians are against godly, just laws and advocate for the legalization of wickedness.

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I've already made it clear in previous posts that the Federal government was formed in a libertarian manner because it was meant to be very limited and weak. The Feds are not to have any say in the matters of most laws, that was left to the States. Well, then, according to this and what you've said, the founding of our country is incompatible with Christianity...but anyone who studies history (and I know you do) knows that isn't so.

Libertarians want libertarian beliefs across the board, from the city hall to the county board to the State government to the Feds. According to their own publications, every aspect of American government should be libertarian. Libertarians want the PEOPLE to decide...that's what libertarian is. And so, if the people are Christian, laws will be scriptural.

We can't abide in Christ if we are not OBeying His Word, the two are one and the same. Christians should expect State laws to follow the guideline of Scripture just as they once did. Christians should not support the removing of just laws nor should they support the creation of unjust laws. Christians should workd for that, but unless we are winning souls to Christ and discipling them it isn't going to happen...and I don't know any Christians who support the creaton of unjust laws. I'm sure there are some, but I don't know any.

Something is wrong when professing Christians are against godly, just laws and advocate for the legalization of wickedness. That something is not following Christ. I hope you don't think I'm advocating the legalization of wickedness...I certainly have never said so nor intimated such. I've merely been pointing out what libertariansim is - and that it can be compatible with scripture: if Christians do their jOB. But too many Christians think they don't need to do anything but complain about what's going on today...

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The united States was established only as a compact between the individual nations (States) for mutual benefit and not designed to usurp their authority. The power to create and enforce laws was left to each State and they chose to base such upon Scripture. This was/is compatible with Christianity.

The libertarian position is that things such as prositution, drug use, alcohol use, marriage, sexual perversion and other "personal matters" should not be subject to any laws. The libertarian position is that such should be legal and each individual allowed to determine for themselves whether they will or won't engage in any of it.

Absolutely, Christians should be about spreading the Gospel, witnessing, living their lives in accord with the Word so others will see. That's always primary.

There are some on this board who have advocated for the abolition of "moral" laws and promoted the idea of people being allowed to do as they please in the name of freedom so long as in their mind others are not harmed.

I know you, LuAnne, have not advocated for freedom to sin and commit wickedness.

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It's not incompatible at all. Unfortunately, some people think that if your view is incompatible with theirs than it must be incompatible with Christianity. We are not to force our views on others. Social conservatives like a government that enforces morality because then they can force the world to conform to their view of what is "right" and make it so they don't have to open their minds to consider that people might have a different view than them.

Of course, we all know that Jesus was a Republican...


Jesus and His 12 were never involved in politics. In fact all of their efforts were made towards that kingdom to come and actually had nothing to do with the affairs of this life.

2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

How can we please Him who called us while tangled in the affiars of this life?


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Overall, libertarianism is incompatible with Christianity.

Not all the property is owned by those wanting to build the mosque. Government officials and others are working hard to get it approved so the rest of the land can be sold to the Muslims so they can build their mosque.



I don't know much about them, but I've heard some that hold to the Libertarian express that they're the party of free thinkers, and they have no moral restraint. And most of those who hold to that seem to be very worldly, and stand directly against the morals and principles God had proclaimed.

As said in another topic, Christians will yoke together with anyone.

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Jesus and His 12 were never involved in politics. In fact all of their efforts were made towards that kingdom to come and actually had nothing to do with the affairs of this life.

2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

How can we please Him who called us while tangled in the affiars of this life?


Jerry, It seems to me that he called the 12 Disciples (and then the 12 Apostles) to a specific purpose and did not call the other hundreds that believed to the same ministry as the 12. You may feel called to the same ministry as the 12; but clearly the Lord Jesus Christ does not call everyone to that same ministry.

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Jerry, It seems to me that he called the 12 Disciples (and then the 12 Apostles) to a specific purpose and did not call the other hundreds that believed to the same ministry as the 12. You may feel called to the same ministry as the 12; but clearly the Lord Jesus Christ does not call everyone to that same ministry.



We are all called to deny self and follow Jesus. We cannot do that if we entangle our self in the affairs of this life. Remember, our citizenship is suppose to be in heaven.

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I don't know much about them, but I've heard some that hold to the Libertarian express that they're the party of free thinkers, and they have no moral restraint. And most of those who hold to that seem to be very worldly, and stand directly against the morals and principles God had proclaimed.

As said in another topic, Christians will yoke together with anyone.


You are correct that you don't know much about them.

I'll take unfair and incorrect blanket statements for 1000, Alex.

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From the Libertarian Party platform:

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the
government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption,
immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or
restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices
and personal relationships.

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

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We are all called to deny self and follow Jesus. We cannot do that if we entangle our self in the affairs of this life. Remember, our citizenship is suppose to be in heaven.

People can still be involved in politics while they follow Jesus. Just about everyone on this forum has a jOB that isn't in the Christian realm. Are we supposed to quit our jOBs because we aren't to be entangled in the affairs of this life? We all have to live. And work. And some jOBs are political.

Our Baptist forbears certainly didn't view the political scene as untouchable. And I'm glad for it. Had it not been for them, we wouldn't have the Bill of Rights. Did you know that the 4th amendment was written in direct correlation to the situation where OBadiah Holmes, John Clark and John Crandall were in a person's home holding a service and the Congregationalists barged in and arrested them? The first amendment was pushed by them because they knew the power of government to oppress religion - especially that which actually lines up with scripture. John Crandall went on to found the town of Westerly, RI, and then became the town's first Baptist pastor. They weren't shy of becoming involved in issues because they knew that is was important.

Yes, we are to be about the business of soulwinning. But not everyone is in full time Christian service. JOBs are needed - and politics is a jOB. One that has been handed over to those whose best interests are not in line with liberty and freedom. And that's a shame.

Kubel - I agree with you up to a point: that point is where the community enters in. For example, the referendum recently in CA. Overwhelming majority voted against gay marriage being legalized. That should be honored. I know that libertarians (I'm not a memember, either, but agree with some of their tenets) for the most part would disagree, but in a civilized society, community does and should have say.

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People can still be involved in politics while they follow Jesus. Just about everyone on this forum has a jOB that isn't in the Christian realm. Are we supposed to quit our jOBs because we aren't to be entangled in the affairs of this life? We all have to live. And work. And some jOBs are political.

Our Baptist forbears certainly didn't view the political scene as untouchable. And I'm glad for it. Had it not been for them, we wouldn't have the Bill of Rights. Did you know that the 4th amendment was written in direct correlation to the situation where OBadiah Holmes, John Clark and John Crandall were in a person's home holding a service and the Congregationalists barged in and arrested them? The first amendment was pushed by them because they knew the power of government to oppress religion - especially that which actually lines up with scripture. John Crandall went on to found the town of Westerly, RI, and then became the town's first Baptist pastor. They weren't shy of becoming involved in issues because they knew that is was important.

Yes, we are to be about the business of soulwinning. But not everyone is in full time Christian service. JOBs are needed - and politics is a jOB. One that has been handed over to those whose best interests are not in line with liberty and freedom. And that's a shame.

Kubel - I agree with you up to a point: that point is where the community enters in. For example, the referendum recently in CA. Overwhelming majority voted against gay marriage being legalized. That should be honored. I know that libertarians (I'm not a memember, either, but agree with some of their tenets) for the most part would disagree, but in a civilized society, community does and should have say.



What our Baptist forbears did is not what we are to follow, actually the RCC follows what their RCC forebears did, look at where that got them.

By the way, our guide is to be the Bible, not people,

Going by what our Baptist forebears did.


2 Corinthians 10:12


12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth

Would be measuring our self to other humans, our measuring stick ought to be Christ.





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Yes, we all know that our measuring stick is Christ. And I'm sure sorry you don't think our Baptist forbears are worthy of following. Sad. They shed their blood so you can have liberty to follow Christ.

The Bible does tell us to follow good examples...

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Yes, we all know that our measuring stick is Christ. And I'm sure sorry you don't think our Baptist forbears are worthy of following. Sad. They shed their blood so you can have liberty to follow Christ.

The Bible does tell us to follow good examples...



Sorry, that you think Christ is only our measuring stick and we are to follow the examples of our forebears.

Yes, that is a snide remark given only because of your snide remark. Don't you feel its past time to hang up the snide remarks when you disagree with someone, more especially when it concerns who we are to follow?

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Once you start following the examples men have set, you set your self up for a big fall. One can look down through history and see this mistake has been made many times. One will never deny them self if they set about following the examples mere men have set.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And after all, Jesus is the one we are to call Lord. Why risk following mere men? By the way, if one will only follow Jesus they will never be disappointed, I promise you the one who starts following a mere man will be sorely disappointed sooner or later.

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Sorry, that you think Christ is only our measuring stick and we are to follow the examples of our forebears.

Yes, that is a snide remark given only because of your snide remark. Don't you feel its past time to hang up the snide remarks when you disagree with someone, more especially when it concerns who we are to follow?

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Once you start following the examples men have set, you set your self up for a big fall. One can look down through history and see this mistake has been made many times. One will never deny them self if they set about following the examples mere men have set.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And after all, Jesus is the one we are to call Lord. Why risk following mere men? By the way, if one will only follow Jesus they will never be disappointed, I promise you the one who starts following a mere man will be sorely disappointed sooner or later.


Knock it off, Jerry8. My comment was not snide. I was agreeing with you about Christ being our measuring stick - and also stating that the Bible tells us there are other examples to follow besides Christ (like Paul, for instance).

Let's get back to topic before this turns personal, okay?

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I've already made it clear in previous posts that the Federal government was formed in a libertarian manner because it was meant to be very limited and weak. The Feds are not to have any say in the matters of most laws, that was left to the States.

Libertarians want libertarian beliefs across the board, from the city hall to the county board to the State government to the Feds. According to their own publications, every aspect of American government should be libertarian.

We can't abide in Christ if we are not OBeying His Word, the two are one and the same. Christians should expect State laws to follow the guideline of Scripture just as they once did. Christians should not support the removing of just laws nor should they support the creation of unjust laws.

Something is wrong when professing Christians are against godly, just laws and advocate for the legalization of wickedness.


This is true. Also, a related figure from the same general movement is Ayn Rand - who specifically wrote a philosophy of "selfishness" because she hated Christianity. Although supposodly an advocate of capitlism, it bears no resemblence to the free markets the founders knew or the puritan work ethic they derived it from. Most of these vain philosophies are really to draw believers out to be among wolves I believe. FYI I was raised on this stuff. I really don't like it after I realize how purposely sophist (look up word) some of it was designed to be.

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This is true. Also, a related figure from the same general movement is Ayn Rand - who specifically wrote a philosophy of "selfishness" because she hated Christianity. Although supposodly an advocate of capitlism, it bears no resemblence to the free markets the founders knew or the puritan work ethic they derived it from. Most of these vain philosophies are really to draw believers out to be among wolves I believe. FYI I was raised on this stuff. I really don't like it after I realize how purposely sophist (look up word) some of it was designed to be.

That's interesting, Max. I've never thought of Ayn Rand being tied to libertarians. I know she didn't like them, and believed they plagiarized her ideas. in 1974 she said:
They are not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers who rush into politics prematurely, because they allegedly want to educate people through a political campaign, which can’t be done. Further, their leadership consists of men of every of persuasion, from religious conservatives to anarchists. Moreover, most of them are my enemies: they spend their time denouncing me, while plagiarizing my ideas. Now, I think it’s a bad beginning for an allegedly pro-capitalist party to start by stealing ideas.
Thanks for bringing her up...I do think the founding of the libertarian movement echoed some of her ideas, but whether they actually plagiarized, I don't know. Rothbard, the actual attributed founder, was influenced by people like Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker, both of whom existed before Rand did.

From the site of the history of the libertarian movement:
Libertarians believe the answer to America's political prOBlems is the same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above all others; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade as prescribed by America's founders.
I don't agree with everthing the libertarian party promotes as a whole (no more than I agree with the GOP in entirety), but I do believe that is has evolved into a party that is truly more in line with the founders as far as personal and political liberty goes.

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