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JerryNumbers

Angry Ron Paul Defends Ground Zero Mosque

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FYI

A large contrast between Thomas Jeffererson and Ron Paul.

Not only did Thomas Jefferson know that sodomy was wrong, he wrote a law for punishing it:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendVIIIs10.html
1788
Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or woman shall be punished, if a man, by castration,
if a woman, by cutting thro' the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least.

Thomas Jefferson also included parts of the bible in bills he introduced, including:

Thomas Jefferson and Bills Number 82-86 of the Laws of Virginia, 1776-1786
• A Bill for Religious Freedom
• A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers
• A Bill for Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving
• A Bill Annulling Marriages Prohibited by the Levitical Law, and Appointing the Mode of Solemnizing Lawful Marriage

And on..

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FYI

A large contrast between Thomas Jeffererson and Ron Paul.

Not only did Thomas Jefferson know that sodomy was wrong, he wrote a law for punishing it:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendVIIIs10.html
1788
Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or woman shall be punished, if a man, by castration,
if a woman, by cutting thro' the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least.

Thomas Jefferson also included parts of the bible in bills he introduced, including:

Thomas Jefferson and Bills Number 82-86 of the Laws of Virginia, 1776-1786
• A Bill for Religious Freedom
• A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers
• A Bill for Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving
• A Bill Annulling Marriages Prohibited by the Levitical Law, and Appointing the Mode of Solemnizing Lawful Marriage

And on..

That doesn't make him a Christian...Don't get me wrong, he did a lot for this country. But you can't make a Christian out of a man who didn't believe Christ rose from the dead. You just cannot.

BTW - let's not cross threads, okay? I know the two have similarities, but let's keep to them.

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Oh, but you can say that someone who agrees with Ron Paul isn't saved because they agree with him. And you can claim that it is your duty to disagree that Ron Paul is saved. What hypocrisy again, Max.

And I'm VERY familiar with Wallbuilders. And I'm on the right track already, thank you very much.


Hypocricy? I've personally argued with his press secretary, who said she was a new age gnostic witch. His campaign manager was a homosexual according to many, Ron Paul says he doesn't "know" that homosexuality is a sin - which is a curse, and I've been famular with the libertarian movement for a long time, and it is filled with those involved in witchcraft, atheists, scorners, and such. OF THOSE HAVE NO COMPANY.

I'm not talking to you anymore. I can see you are not someone I can trust. I am just keeping the warning going. Keep company with actual Christians who walk as such.

FYI - most of the documents I am posting are not from wallbuilders. I actually at this time have more source documents on my harddrive then available from them. HappyChristian, I'm not talking to you anymore. You broke friendship when you insulted me, but it was OBvious you were pushing for something before that - and that is sin, when we put things above actual love.

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Hypocricy? I've personally argued with his press secretary, who said she was a new age gnostic witch. His campaign manager was a homosexual according to many, Ron Paul says he doesn't "know" that homosexuality is a sin - which is a curse, and I've been famular with the libertarian movement for a long time, and it is filled with those involved in witchcraft, atheists, scorners, and such. OF THOSE HAVE NO COMPANY.

I'm not talking to you anymore. I can see you are not someone I can trust. I am just keeping the warning going. Keep company with actual Christians who walk as such.

FYI - most of the documents I am posting are not from wallbuilders. I actually at this time have more source documents on my harddrive then available from them. HappyChristian, I'm not talking to you anymore. You broke friendship when you insulted me, but it was OBvious you were pushing for something before that - and that is sin, when we put things above actual love.

You know what? It's fine that you've talked to his press secretary and all the other. My point was that you keep saying that I am judging a man's salvation - based on his own writings - and that it's wrong, but you do the same thing regarding Ron Paul AND also a member on this forum. You have done what you have told me I shouldn't do. THAT is what my point about the hypocrisy was.

You can't trust me? Well, I'm sorry. But I'm not going to back down from the truth of our history because you want to believe things that aren't true.

Pushing for something? No - I was just having a conversation. Disagreement is part of conversation and learning sometimes. If I didn't care, I would just let you go on believing things that aren't true...

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...

That doesn't make him a Christian...Don't get me wrong, he did a lot for this country. But you can't make a Christian out of a man who didn't believe Christ rose from the dead. You just cannot.

BTW - let's not cross threads, okay? I know the two have similarities, but let's keep to them.


You don't "un" make him a Christian. Also, I think you are sinning unless you have something more in that he didn't believe
Christianity then taking a study list he wrote from Jesus's sermons out of context - because you didn't say he "said that",
you said "he did this with the study guide" and "it means that". But every time he attended church and prayed, he said the other,
so my belief is your judging where the bible says not to. I disagree with your statements, and think you are slandering a dead man.
If he was a religion, I would see some merit in talking about his doctrine if it is false, but what you are arguing about is whether an
individual person really believed what he said he believed. I think this is sin to judge.

A point missed on atheists, if I was arguing with atheists, is if you call yourself a Christian and you are not, does not make
you a deist, it makes you an apostate. A christian apostate, but not a deist. It saddens me that even on a Christian forum
we have the same destruction of our history taught.

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You can't trust me? Well, I'm sorry. But I'm not going to back down from the truth of our history because you want to believe things that aren't true.


Truth of history? I'm teaching like it has always been taught all the way until 40 to 60 years ago. I am also not pushing Ron Paul, who I have found is the primary pusher of this rewrite of history among certain conservatives.

You called me a hyocrite. You broke faith right there with me, because I didn't call you any name. Since you don't see anything wrong with what Ron Paul does, I also see somewhat a reason for this. Let me reword that though - I have no interest in talking to you. The bible says to avoid vain discussions like this. If you see me post more on the topic, it isn't for you. I really am only interested in posting original sources. So apart from replying to your last posts - I am just posting for other members.

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My point was that you keep saying that I am judging a man's salvation - based on his own writings -


You judged that based not on anything he said, but because he wrote a study guide, originally intended for his own use, of all of Jesus's sermons, and because that didn't include Jesus Christ rising, he must not be saved. That isn't a fair judgement, because he didn't say that - you supposed unfairly from what you referenced, which was not suppose to be a copy of the bible.

I am not going to have this discusion with you if someone was "really saved" or not. Thomas Jefferson claimed he was, was in a regular mainstream church, and it is really beneath contempt to have such a discussion even if atheists have taught you can. The bible says we are not to. If anyone had the rule over that man, it was his own church, and he was in good standing. Jesus Christ will judge if Thomas Jefferson is really saved.

Also, I never said or meant to say that Ron Paul was not saved. I said, I had my doubts based on his fruit, and the bible says you will know them by their fruit. Wherever Ron Paul goes, I see a bunch of really apostate people who despise our countries Christian founding. He is certainly not a preacher, and he *is* in sin, because he sees nothing wrong with homosexuality or apparently new agers.

I have "doubts" that a lot of people behind pulpits are saved too. The bible says beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. But they just may be in error.

My take: Thomas Jefferson gets attacked because the evil one wants to take away from the worship America gave God in 1776. Attacking a drafter of the document is one way to do that.

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A Couple qualifiers for me.

1. I don't like Ron Paul and what he stands for.
2. I have not read this entire thread. Way too long for me.

With that said, I would recommend a big deep breath before posting again.

Max,
She didn't call you a hypocrite, she said there was hypocracy in your post.

I personally know a number of followers of Ron Paul who are most definitively saved. I think they are misguided by his positions, but nevertheless, they are still saved. Salvation is based on repentance and putting your faith in Christ Jesus alone. The only way to know if someone is truly saved is by the fruit they bare.

Pastor J.

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A Couple qualifiers for me.

1. I don't like Ron Paul and what he stands for.
2. I have not read this entire thread. Way too long for me.

With that said, I would recommend a big deep breath before posting again.

Max,
She didn't call you a hypocrite, she said there was hypocracy in your post.

I personally know a number of followers of Ron Paul who are most definitively saved. I think they are misguided by his positions, but nevertheless, they are still saved. Salvation is based on repentance and putting your faith in Christ Jesus alone. The only way to know if someone is truly saved is by the fruit they bare.

Pastor J.


Well, I'm not for going on with this thread. Its making me dizzy trying to read it and use the editor. There isn't any hypocricy in my posts, I think more is being read in them then should be.

I know Ron Paul pretty well. I voted for him in 1988, used to attend libertarian party meetings in two different cities, and gave an awful lot of money to him last election, and YES I went to his son's Rand Paul's meeting just last night. Seeing all that, I know there are saved people who follow him - maybe there shouldn't be!. I still help out as I feel appropiate DESPITE believing everything I said. I regret wasting as much of my God given talent as I did on that movement or type of it - but I still look in it to see what my pagan neighbors are doing - out of love. I'd be really careful on helping out too much, or it'll end up hurting your Christian goals.

What I did say is: - there are a lot - and I mean a LOT of new agers, occultists, atheists, etc following this man. I also said a couple of days ago it could be good fishing ground.

But politically, God will not bless this because the people doing it by and large are not saved. I had a huge discussion about this on one of their main forums two years ago, which is why I have so many documents about our founding fathers. The majority of them actually despise America's Christian foundings. This is suppose to help? I think not. John Hancock called for fasting and repentence all the time. THAT IS WHAT CAN HELP. That movement is leading people away from the only true source of government in the world. Jesus Christ who sits on his Father's throne.

Yes, his press secretary is a new age gnostic witch. Her last post on the subject was ironically "#666", and I kept it. This was in between the occult book wholesaler, and all the other reprOBates. This nation needs to repent and come to God - and that is what it needs politically too. And *this* isn't it.

FYI - the worldnetdaily link. I gave them the story which they printed. It was right after the other stuff, and I have yet to hear that Ron Paul knows that homosexuality is a sin. I gave them the link because this is a war, and when a leader is leading people astray and saying he doesn't know sodomy is a sin - that is antichrist. Maybe the man will repent, we war against principalities and powers. That is what I am OBjecting to - not the men, and not even the individual sin, but the spirit hovering over it - bitterness and not giving the glory to the Lord.

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Well, I'm not for going on with this thread. Its making me dizzy trying to read it and use the editor. There isn't any hypocricy in my posts, I think more is being read in them then should be.

I know Ron Paul pretty well. I voted for him in 1988, used to attend libertarian party meetings in two different cities, and gave an awful lot of money to him last election, and YES I went to his son's Rand Paul's meeting just last night. Seeing all that, I know there are saved people who follow him - maybe there shouldn't be!. I still help out as I feel appropiate DESPITE believing everything I said. I regret wasting as much of my God given talent as I did on that movement or type of it - but I still look in it to see what my pagan neighbors are doing - out of love. I'd be really careful on helping out too much, or it'll end up hurting your Christian goals.

What I did say is: - there are a lot - and I mean a LOT of new agers, occultists, atheists, etc following this man. I also said a couple of days ago it could be good fishing ground.

But politically, God will not bless this because the people doing it by and large are not saved. I had a huge discussion about this on one of their main forums two years ago, which is why I have so many documents about our founding fathers. The majority of them actually despise America's Christian foundings. This is suppose to help? I think not. John Hancock called for fasting and repentence all the time. THAT IS WHAT CAN HELP. That movement is leading people away from the only true source of government in the world. Jesus Christ who sits on his Father's throne.

Yes, his press secretary is a new age gnostic witch. Her last post on the subject was ironically "#666", and I kept it. This was in between the occult book wholesaler, and all the other reprOBates. This nation needs to repent and come to God - and that is what it needs politically too. And *this* isn't it.

FYI - the worldnetdaily link. I gave them the story which they printed. It was right after the other stuff, and I have yet to hear that Ron Paul knows that homosexuality is a sin. I gave them the link because this is a war, and when a leader is leading people astray and saying he doesn't know sodomy is a sin - that is antichrist. Maybe the man will repent, we war against principalities and powers. That is what I am OBjecting to - not the men, and not even the individual sin, but the spirit hovering over it - bitterness and not giving the glory to the Lord.


The religion of his press secretary has nothing to do with the religion of the Congressman or anyone who votes for him. You can't discriminate based on religion when hiring for govt jOBs.

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Seems some people defends this United States more than they do Christ, and this United States has always had these sort of people running it.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Ro 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Ro 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Ro 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Ro 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Ro 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

With these kind of people running this nation throughout its history, it cannot really be near as good a country as many claim.

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Seems some people defends this United States more than they do Christ, and this United States has always had these sort of people running it.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Ro 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Ro 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Ro 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Ro 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Ro 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

With these kind of people running this nation throughout its history, it cannot really be near as good a country as many claim.


That's true Jerry. I read an article or something in a book once which pointed out how Americans have long viewed herself has being a special nation with God favoring them over others. In this, Americans have tended to think of themselves as unique and that no others have had such thoughts.

The author went on to point out that dozens of other nations can all make the same claims. They have Christian mottos, Christian songs about their country, beliefs their country is special to God, beliefs that what has been done in their country and outside their country were special acts of God, beliefs that their founding or the founding of their current government system were specially ordained of God, beliefs most of their leaders were men of God, etc., on and on matching beliefs and evidences that Americans seem to believe are unique to them.

America had a tumultuous beginning, some have argued a sinful beginning. America's governmental system was founded by men, and no matter how good they did it's still a flawed, man-made system. From the beginning we can see corruption taking hold and working against that which was good in the system. It didn't take long before more corruption came about and more and more corrupt men came into power.

Amazing that so many professing Christians today seem to think America was a nearly perfect, godly nation from it's beginning until about the mid or later 20th century.

In like manner, if one views the history of the various churches in America we can see how corruption entered many early on and spread forth from there.

I'm thankful to have been born here and for the benefits we do have but it's wrong to place America upon a high pedestal. Scripture tells us plainly the truth regarding all nations.

Christians, of all people, should be more concerned with the truth rather than perception or what they want to believe.

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That's true Jerry. I read an article or something in a book once which pointed out how Americans have long viewed herself has being a special nation with God favoring them over others. In this, Americans have tended to think of themselves as unique and that no others have had such thoughts.

The author went on to point out that dozens of other nations can all make the same claims. They have Christian mottos, Christian songs about their country, beliefs their country is special to God, beliefs that what has been done in their country and outside their country were special acts of God, beliefs that their founding or the founding of their current government system were specially ordained of God, beliefs most of their leaders were men of God, etc., on and on matching beliefs and evidences that Americans seem to believe are unique to them.

America had a tumultuous beginning, some have argued a sinful beginning. America's governmental system was founded by men, and no matter how good they did it's still a flawed, man-made system. From the beginning we can see corruption taking hold and working against that which was good in the system. It didn't take long before more corruption came about and more and more corrupt men came into power.

Amazing that so many professing Christians today seem to think America was a nearly perfect, godly nation from it's beginning until about the mid or later 20th century.

In like manner, if one views the history of the various churches in America we can see how corruption entered many early on and spread forth from there.

I'm thankful to have been born here and for the benefits we do have but it's wrong to place America upon a high pedestal. Scripture tells us plainly the truth regarding all nations.

Christians, of all people, should be more concerned with the truth rather than perception or what they want to believe.



Amen, most of us were brain washed for at lest 12 years of public school, having us pledge allegiance to the flag of this United States, so its no wonder. Many there be that think they're Christian because they live in what they were told for at least 12 years a Christian country.

These people think that flying the flag of this country is flying a Christian flag. In the past I thought many times about putting up a flag pole and flying the American flag, glad I did not, the only flag I would raise on my place is the Christian flag, and all of my allegiance goes to my Lord. I refuse to let anything to be of more importance to me than He.

Plus, this country was started by a bunch of rebellious people that rebelled against the Lord their God, that is if one really believes the Bible is God true Word and will stop picking and choosing how to apply it to the life they're living.

Ro 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Ro 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Ro 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Ro 13:7 ¶ Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

No, they rebelled, they started a war, and God's Word tells us about why wars come about.


Jas 4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot OBtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

By the way, Americans have a lot because they feed their very own lust, and think more of those who have a lot of material goods than they do the poor God fearing people. Many Americans do everything they can to get the best God offers along with the best this world offers.

I to am thankful to have been born in America, I am even more thankful that each person will only be judge on those things he has done, and will not be responsible for others, and the sins they took part in.

How do you suppose the fathers of this country explained away the word of the Holy Bible in order to try and make their rebellious ways against those that were over them right in the sight of God?

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Uh, Jerry8, the founder's writings are full of their explanations, as well as sermons by very godly pastors of that period...

~~~~

As to Thomas Jefferson's own words...Again, I say that ending his book with Christ left in the tomb shows that he didn't accept the resurrection. His book was not actually a study book for himself. It was the result of conversations he had with Benjamin Rush about Christianity. Here are some excerpts from two letters he wrote explaining his beliefs...

In some of the delightful conversations with you in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.
How can one be a Christian if Christ is only human?

But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true and high light, as no impostor Himself, but a great Reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with Him in all His doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require counterpoise of good works to redeem it, etc., etc. It is the innocence of His character, the purity and sublimity of His moral precepts, the eloquence of His inculcations, the beauty of the apologues in which He conveys them, that I so much admire; sometimes, indeed, needing indulgence to eastern hyperbolism. My eulogies, too, may be founded on a postulate which all may not be ready to grant. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to Him by His biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same Being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to Him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of His disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of His doctrines, led me to try to sift them apart.
Christ taught the efficay of repentance, but Jefferson thinks it needs to be countered with good works...That's not salvation.

Those are his words.

There were many of our founders (both known and unkown) who were saved. There were others who weren't. Biblical principle held sway in decisions, though, because the rank and file of the American people were religious, at the very least, if not outright Christians. Our founding documents were not religious in nature, but they definitely were biblical in scope.

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If the US is the "land of the free", which is doubtful if it has ever been, then the mosque or any other mosque should be allowed.


For one person to have free rights that means someone will have to sacrifice some rights. Even in a free country there has to be laws and restrictions that limits rights.

Yet we are in a time in America where many are given rights without consideration of other peoples rights. Point in case, that church that gangs up at the funeral services of our soldiers, their family and friends have ever right to expect such trash not to be allowed in sight on anyone attending the funeral services disturbing their peace. That is no one should have the right to disturb the peace of any who attend the funeral services

One persons rights are to end where another persons rights begin, yet that is not the case anymore, thanks to our ignorant judges.

And if the Islams had any compassion they would forgo putting that place near ground zero, yet all they want to do is force it on America.

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For one person to have free rights that means someone will have to sacrifice some rights. Even in a free country there has to be laws and restrictions that limits rights.


How is it against someone elses rights for a private property owner to build a mosque on property that their own? This Ground Zero Mosque argument needs to be stripped of all emotionalism and drama, because only then will people look at the law. The law quite clearly gives the private property owner the right to build a mosque there. My personal feelings, your feelings, the nations emotions- none of this matters when it comes to freedom.

As a libertarian, I have found that freedom is a difficult concept for even conservative Americans to grasp.

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How is it against someone elses rights for a private property owner to build a mosque on property that their own? This Ground Zero Mosque argument needs to be stripped of all emotionalism and drama, because only then will people look at the law. The law quite clearly gives the private property owner the right to build a mosque there. My personal feelings, your feelings, the nations emotions- none of this matters when it comes to freedom.

As a libertarian, I have found that freedom is a difficult concept for even conservative Americans to grasp.



Libertarian, that figures.

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Overall, libertarianism is incompatible with Christianity.

Not all the property is owned by those wanting to build the mosque. Government officials and others are working hard to get it approved so the rest of the land can be sold to the Muslims so they can build their mosque.

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Overall, libertarianism is incompatible with Christianity.


How is it incompatible?

I can see how people would confuse my personal liberty stand as saying to God, "this is my life and I'll do with it how I will". But I'm not saying that to God, I'm saying that to government. I can be a Christian and still accept secular minarchism as the most ideal form of government on this Earth.

Take homosexuality for instance. I believe the Bible says it is sin. I believe it is sin. I believe homosexuals are sinners. I believe it's immoral. I think it's sad when people allow themselves to be ruled by this sin. I think people should turn from their sin and look to God. But I don't feel government should force them to do that. Government should stay out of peoples lives. If other people are not being hurt, killed, having contracts violated, or having property invaded or taken from them because of homosexuality, then I believe it should be an issue of faith, not of government.

Take abortion as another example. I believe it's sin and immoral, it's sad, people should repent, etc.... But it's not just a personal issue of morality that is directly affects the individual having the abortion (as is the case of homosexuality). It's directly affecting the life of the child- IT'S MURDER! And I believe it's governments duty to protect the right to life. Many in the LP (I'm not a member) support abortion prOBably because they don't recognize life prior to birth, but there is the same division within the LP as there are in other parties. The question should be asked in all political parties "when does life begin?". If some libertarians (like myself and Dr. Paul) believe it begins at conception, then they will be against abortion (or more to the point, against murder).

Government is a tricky thing, and in my OBservation of it, I have found that when it tries to 'fix' things, it only makes them worse (and does so at great expense to the taxpayers). If government stuck to its basic responsibilities of enforcing contracts, protecting life and liberty, etc... I think we would all be better off. And I know that might sound scary to some people (the thought of a government that does not enforce personal morals). But let's be honest, there's no hope for anyone outside of Jesus Christ. Government certainly isn't going to save people or make them moral. But it sure does try to. It's just that government makes a very bad church. Historically, when it tries to be one, it only hurts liberty.

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Scripture tells us what government is for and Scripture provides the basis for governmental laws and such. The libertarian view is contrary to this.

In America the central government was formed in a libertarian manner because it was meant to be very limited in power and duties. The States were left to establish their governmental power structures and laws as they saw fit. Originally, they were very Bible-centered in nature.

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How is it incompatible?

I can see how people would confuse my personal liberty stand as saying to God, "this is my life and I'll do with it how I will". But I'm not saying that to God, I'm saying that to government. I can be a Christian and still accept secular minarchism as the most ideal form of government on this Earth.

Take homosexuality for instance. I believe the Bible says it is sin. I believe it is sin. I believe homosexuals are sinners. I believe it's immoral. I think it's sad when people allow themselves to be ruled by this sin. I think people should turn from their sin and look to God. But I don't feel government should force them to do that. Government should stay out of peoples lives. If other people are not being hurt, killed, having contracts violated, or having property invaded or taken from them because of homosexuality, then I believe it should be an issue of faith, not of government.

Take abortion as another example. I believe it's sin and immoral, it's sad, people should repent, etc.... But it's not just a personal issue of morality that is directly affects the individual having the abortion (as is the case of homosexuality). It's directly affecting the life of the child- IT'S MURDER! And I believe it's governments duty to protect the right to life. Many in the LP (I'm not a member) support abortion prOBably because they don't recognize life prior to birth, but there is the same division within the LP as there are in other parties. The question should be asked in all political parties "when does life begin?". If some libertarians (like myself and Dr. Paul) believe it begins at conception, then they will be against abortion (or more to the point, against murder).

Government is a tricky thing, and in my OBservation of it, I have found that when it tries to 'fix' things, it only makes them worse (and does so at great expense to the taxpayers). If government stuck to its basic responsibilities of enforcing contracts, protecting life and liberty, etc... I think we would all be better off. And I know that might sound scary to some people (the thought of a government that does not enforce personal morals). But let's be honest, there's no hope for anyone outside of Jesus Christ. Government certainly isn't going to save people or make them moral. But it sure does try to. It's just that government makes a very bad church. Historically, when it tries to be one, it only hurts liberty.


It's not incompatible at all. Unfortunately, some people think that if your view is incompatible with theirs than it must be incompatible with Christianity. We are not to force our views on others. Social conservatives like a government that enforces morality because then they can force the world to conform to their view of what is "right" and make it so they don't have to open their minds to consider that people might have a different view than them.

Of course, we all know that Jesus was a Republican...

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It's not incompatible at all. Unfortunately, some people think that if your view is incompatible with theirs than it must be incompatible with Christianity. We are not to force our views on others. Social conservatives like a government that enforces morality because then they can force the world to conform to their view of what is "right" and make it so they don't have to open their minds to consider that people might have a different view than them.

Of course, we all know that Jesus was a Republican...


You are way off base. Only if you leave Scripture out of the equation can you believe such a thing. Scripture tells us what government is for and we are provided a blueprint.

Christians are to view everything through the lens of Scripture and conform themselves to the image of Christ who OBeyed the Word of God. Scripture is the only true source of what is right and that is to be the source Christians look to and abide by.

Libertarianism is close to the view which prevailed during the time of the Judges; everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. The Bible declares this is wickedness.

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We are not to force our views on others.
Laws by their very nature are imposing somebody's morality on others. Abortion changed from murder to a privacy issue, so society now accepts it. Tell a child whose parents were killed by a drunken driver that alcohol is a private matter. Sex outside marriage was outlawed in every state at one time; look at what "staying out of bedroom" has done to our society now.

Now, you may argue that drunkenness and sexual immorality are moral lapses of sinful man. And I would agree. But God established government to punish evil. Who defined evil? God did. God imposed His morality (His holiness) on the nation of Israel and on us as New Testament believers; granted as the Creator, it's His right to do so. But if God was libertarian as defined today, then He wouldn't care what the Israelites did, nor would He care enough to send His Son to the cross.

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Laws by their very nature are imposing somebody's morality on others. Abortion changed from murder to a privacy issue, so society now accepts it. Tell a child whose parents were killed by a drunken driver that alcohol is a private matter. Sex outside marriage was outlawed in every state at one time; look at what "staying out of bedroom" has done to our society now.

Now, you may argue that drunkenness and sexual immorality are moral lapses of sinful man. And I would agree. But God established government to punish evil. Who defined evil? God did. God imposed His morality (His holiness) on the nation of Israel and on us as New Testament believers; granted as the Creator, it's His right to do so. But if God was libertarian as defined today, then He wouldn't care what the Israelites did, nor would He care enough to send His Son to the cross.


:amen: Well said Mitch!

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