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Angry Ron Paul Defends Ground Zero Mosque


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From the Libertarian Party platform:

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the
government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption,
immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or
restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices
and personal relationships.

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

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We are all called to deny self and follow Jesus. We cannot do that if we entangle our self in the affairs of this life. Remember, our citizenship is suppose to be in heaven.

People can still be involved in politics while they follow Jesus. Just about everyone on this forum has a jOB that isn't in the Christian realm. Are we supposed to quit our jOBs because we aren't to be entangled in the affairs of this life? We all have to live. And work. And some jOBs are political.

Our Baptist forbears certainly didn't view the political scene as untouchable. And I'm glad for it. Had it not been for them, we wouldn't have the Bill of Rights. Did you know that the 4th amendment was written in direct correlation to the situation where OBadiah Holmes, John Clark and John Crandall were in a person's home holding a service and the Congregationalists barged in and arrested them? The first amendment was pushed by them because they knew the power of government to oppress religion - especially that which actually lines up with scripture. John Crandall went on to found the town of Westerly, RI, and then became the town's first Baptist pastor. They weren't shy of becoming involved in issues because they knew that is was important.

Yes, we are to be about the business of soulwinning. But not everyone is in full time Christian service. JOBs are needed - and politics is a jOB. One that has been handed over to those whose best interests are not in line with liberty and freedom. And that's a shame.

Kubel - I agree with you up to a point: that point is where the community enters in. For example, the referendum recently in CA. Overwhelming majority voted against gay marriage being legalized. That should be honored. I know that libertarians (I'm not a memember, either, but agree with some of their tenets) for the most part would disagree, but in a civilized society, community does and should have say.
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People can still be involved in politics while they follow Jesus. Just about everyone on this forum has a jOB that isn't in the Christian realm. Are we supposed to quit our jOBs because we aren't to be entangled in the affairs of this life? We all have to live. And work. And some jOBs are political.

Our Baptist forbears certainly didn't view the political scene as untouchable. And I'm glad for it. Had it not been for them, we wouldn't have the Bill of Rights. Did you know that the 4th amendment was written in direct correlation to the situation where OBadiah Holmes, John Clark and John Crandall were in a person's home holding a service and the Congregationalists barged in and arrested them? The first amendment was pushed by them because they knew the power of government to oppress religion - especially that which actually lines up with scripture. John Crandall went on to found the town of Westerly, RI, and then became the town's first Baptist pastor. They weren't shy of becoming involved in issues because they knew that is was important.

Yes, we are to be about the business of soulwinning. But not everyone is in full time Christian service. JOBs are needed - and politics is a jOB. One that has been handed over to those whose best interests are not in line with liberty and freedom. And that's a shame.

Kubel - I agree with you up to a point: that point is where the community enters in. For example, the referendum recently in CA. Overwhelming majority voted against gay marriage being legalized. That should be honored. I know that libertarians (I'm not a memember, either, but agree with some of their tenets) for the most part would disagree, but in a civilized society, community does and should have say.



What our Baptist forbears did is not what we are to follow, actually the RCC follows what their RCC forebears did, look at where that got them.

By the way, our guide is to be the Bible, not people,

Going by what our Baptist forebears did.


2 Corinthians 10:12


12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth

Would be measuring our self to other humans, our measuring stick ought to be Christ.





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Yes, we all know that our measuring stick is Christ. And I'm sure sorry you don't think our Baptist forbears are worthy of following. Sad. They shed their blood so you can have liberty to follow Christ.

The Bible does tell us to follow good examples...

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Yes, we all know that our measuring stick is Christ. And I'm sure sorry you don't think our Baptist forbears are worthy of following. Sad. They shed their blood so you can have liberty to follow Christ.

The Bible does tell us to follow good examples...



Sorry, that you think Christ is only our measuring stick and we are to follow the examples of our forebears.

Yes, that is a snide remark given only because of your snide remark. Don't you feel its past time to hang up the snide remarks when you disagree with someone, more especially when it concerns who we are to follow?

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Once you start following the examples men have set, you set your self up for a big fall. One can look down through history and see this mistake has been made many times. One will never deny them self if they set about following the examples mere men have set.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And after all, Jesus is the one we are to call Lord. Why risk following mere men? By the way, if one will only follow Jesus they will never be disappointed, I promise you the one who starts following a mere man will be sorely disappointed sooner or later.
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Sorry, that you think Christ is only our measuring stick and we are to follow the examples of our forebears.

Yes, that is a snide remark given only because of your snide remark. Don't you feel its past time to hang up the snide remarks when you disagree with someone, more especially when it concerns who we are to follow?

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Once you start following the examples men have set, you set your self up for a big fall. One can look down through history and see this mistake has been made many times. One will never deny them self if they set about following the examples mere men have set.

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And after all, Jesus is the one we are to call Lord. Why risk following mere men? By the way, if one will only follow Jesus they will never be disappointed, I promise you the one who starts following a mere man will be sorely disappointed sooner or later.


Knock it off, Jerry8. My comment was not snide. I was agreeing with you about Christ being our measuring stick - and also stating that the Bible tells us there are other examples to follow besides Christ (like Paul, for instance).

Let's get back to topic before this turns personal, okay?
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I've already made it clear in previous posts that the Federal government was formed in a libertarian manner because it was meant to be very limited and weak. The Feds are not to have any say in the matters of most laws, that was left to the States.

Libertarians want libertarian beliefs across the board, from the city hall to the county board to the State government to the Feds. According to their own publications, every aspect of American government should be libertarian.

We can't abide in Christ if we are not OBeying His Word, the two are one and the same. Christians should expect State laws to follow the guideline of Scripture just as they once did. Christians should not support the removing of just laws nor should they support the creation of unjust laws.

Something is wrong when professing Christians are against godly, just laws and advocate for the legalization of wickedness.


This is true. Also, a related figure from the same general movement is Ayn Rand - who specifically wrote a philosophy of "selfishness" because she hated Christianity. Although supposodly an advocate of capitlism, it bears no resemblence to the free markets the founders knew or the puritan work ethic they derived it from. Most of these vain philosophies are really to draw believers out to be among wolves I believe. FYI I was raised on this stuff. I really don't like it after I realize how purposely sophist (look up word) some of it was designed to be. Edited by MaxKennedy
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This is true. Also, a related figure from the same general movement is Ayn Rand - who specifically wrote a philosophy of "selfishness" because she hated Christianity. Although supposodly an advocate of capitlism, it bears no resemblence to the free markets the founders knew or the puritan work ethic they derived it from. Most of these vain philosophies are really to draw believers out to be among wolves I believe. FYI I was raised on this stuff. I really don't like it after I realize how purposely sophist (look up word) some of it was designed to be.

That's interesting, Max. I've never thought of Ayn Rand being tied to libertarians. I know she didn't like them, and believed they plagiarized her ideas. in 1974 she said:
They are not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers who rush into politics prematurely, because they allegedly want to educate people through a political campaign, which can’t be done. Further, their leadership consists of men of every of persuasion, from religious conservatives to anarchists. Moreover, most of them are my enemies: they spend their time denouncing me, while plagiarizing my ideas. Now, I think it’s a bad beginning for an allegedly pro-capitalist party to start by stealing ideas.
Thanks for bringing her up...I do think the founding of the libertarian movement echoed some of her ideas, but whether they actually plagiarized, I don't know. Rothbard, the actual attributed founder, was influenced by people like Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker, both of whom existed before Rand did.

From the site of the history of the libertarian movement:
Libertarians believe the answer to America's political prOBlems is the same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication to civil liberties and personal freedom that marks this country above all others; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade as prescribed by America's founders.
I don't agree with everthing the libertarian party promotes as a whole (no more than I agree with the GOP in entirety), but I do believe that is has evolved into a party that is truly more in line with the founders as far as personal and political liberty goes.
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From the site of the history of the libertarian movement: I don't agree with everthing the libertarian party promotes as a whole (no more than I agree with the GOP in entirety), but I do believe that is has evolved into a party that is truly more in line with the founders as far as personal and political liberty goes.


The founders recognized that law comes from God, and gave him the glory. The libertarians condemn that, try to derive it from sophistic reasoning about morals, and actually end up condemning all of our founding fathers while trying to steal their name (or crown). It makes my eyes water just thinking about it.
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In America it seems many professing Christians will line up with those who partially agrees with God, paying no mind to the points where they disagree with God.

That is they try to pick out the lesser of the evil, them hang their hope for the future on this country on them.


Many professing Christians are more than willing to allow themselves to be blind to wickedness or to elevate some man-made notion of America or patriotism or their own personal preferences above Almighty God.

When professing Christians reject what Scripture says in order to accept a worldly position they reveal where their heart and loyalty is.
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Many professing Christians are more than willing to allow themselves to be blind to wickedness or to elevate some man-made notion of America or patriotism or their own personal preferences above Almighty God.

When professing Christians reject what Scripture says in order to accept a worldly position they reveal where their heart and loyalty is.


If it isn't what God wants, then remove youself from it and pray about it. It isn't the numbers. God is a majority, and He rules.
As bad as it might seem - it seems to me that politics really skates around the prince of this world trying to get Christians
not to pray to their Father like they know He's really in charge. Its amazing how things suddently change a new way when
Christians start praying and ignore the noise.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (King James Version)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Edited by MaxKennedy
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If it isn't what God wants, then remove youself from it and pray about it. It isn't the numbers. God is a majority, and He rules.
As bad as it might seem - it seems to me that politics really skates around the prince of this world trying to get Christians
not to pray to their Father like they know He's really in charge. Its amazing how things suddently change a new way when
Christians start praying and ignore the noise.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (King James Version)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.



This may be what you meant, I'm not sure, but those verses do not speak of earthly government but of heavenly or spiritual government. That's why the people of that time were confused (and Herod tried to have Jesus killed) because they were expecting an earthly ruler.
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