Freedom of Worship vs. Freedom of Religion

[John81]

CPR stated she wasn't liberal. That was the point of my response.

[HappyChristian]

CPR stated she wasn't liberal. That was the point of my response.

Okay - I understand that. But I do believe she was speaking politically. Regardless, as I said, this isn't the first thread you've brought her church into the discussion. That's my point. [As to the idea that one has to be liberal politically if they attend Anglican (or Episcopalian) church, I work with a woman who is Episcopalian. And she is politically conservative. I also work with Baptists who are quite progressive.]

[CPR]

Thanks, Happy. Yes, I was speaking politically. I was also just pointing out that this phrase has been used for awhile so perhaps the alarm isn't entirely being fair to our current president. However, I do believe we should always be vigilant to protect our rights, as they are fundamental to our country and our identity as Americans.

John, you seem to have quite a lot to say about my church and potentially some questions. I have told you before that I am willing to discuss should you start a thread for that purpose. However the attacks and admonishments are getting a bit tiresome and I should be able to discuss things that have nothing to do with that and still be able to disagree civilly. Also for the record (and since your post seemed to indicate this) I am not a new Christian. I have been a Christian for 20 years. I know that as long as I am on this earth I will have much more to learn, but I allow myself to be taught as well and I don't need to be addressed in a condescending manner.

[JerryNumbers]

Okay - I understand that. But I do believe she was speaking politically. Regardless, as I said, this isn't the first thread you've brought her church into the discussion. That's my point. [As to the idea that one has to be liberal politically if they attend Anglican (or Episcopalian) church, I work with a woman who is Episcopalian. And she is politically conservative. I also work with Baptists who are quite progressive.]

Amazing, you can make snide remarks to posters, them get onto someone who is on topic, time for you to take a time out! Telling them to get on topic when they are on topic addressing something some one said it their post.

John, those who are liberal do not think they're liberal, except in politics. Yet many politician's are members of the liberal democrat party and claim to be conservative which in reality compared to a real conservative they are really liberal.

[DennisD]

How is it you explain the fact you take the liberal position on virtually every topic and subject that comes up? How do you explain being a member of a church which practices liberalism rather than following the Word of God?

If nothing else, the fear of God should prompt each of us to examine ourselves continually by the Word of God; repenting where necessary and making the necessary changes to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh.

What did Christ say of those who think they are His but will find out they are not when it's too late...or what did Christ say about those who are lukewarm...

Scripture says we are to examine ourselves and make sure of our salvation. One means of doing this is examining our views and actions in light of the Word of God.

If we are accepting, making excuses for, tolerating or yoking ourselves to that which is against the Word of God we need to question ourselves as to why we are doing this and why we are not repenting and OBeying the Word of God.

Don't take what I'm posting as an attack upon you because that's not what it is. What I'm posting applies to all of us; myself most assuredly included. I've been saved nearly 29 years now and over those years I've had to allow the Spirit to correct me many times. Even now I don't take anything for granted but check it all by the Word of God. Over the years I've allowed the Spirit to teach me through the Word and transform me with regards to many things, including baptism, women preachers, homosexuality, love, the Bible, church attendance, friends, etc.

During my first couple years as a Christian I so wish someone would have come along and pointed out my unbiblical views and positions. NOBody did, but thankfully the Lord taught me as I began to get into the Word more and a bit later the Lord brought a wonderful Christian friend into my life and then a little later He guided me to a biblically solid pastor and church home.

Don't allow your emotions or personal beliefs or anything else to stand between you and fully following Christ and OBeying His Word.

Thanks John, great post. We most definitely need to examine ourselves all the time to make sure we are truly following God's Word. I needed this today and I'm sure I'll need it another day.

[John81]

John, you seem to have quite a lot to say about my church and potentially some questions. I have told you before that I am willing to discuss should you start a thread for that purpose. However the attacks and admonishments are getting a bit tiresome and I should be able to discuss things that have nothing to do with that and still be able to disagree civilly. Also for the record (and since your post seemed to indicate this) I am not a new Christian. I have been a Christian for 20 years. I know that as long as I am on this earth I will have much more to learn, but I allow myself to be taught as well and I don't need to be addressed in a condescending manner.

If you read my post carefully you will notice my questions were not about the church you attend but about concern for you. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion I thought you were a new Christian but I assure you that was not on my mind. One can be a Christian one year and mature more in Christ than some who have professed Christ for 50 years. How long one has been in Christ isn't always an indicator or maturity or immaturity in Christ.

Since you have brought it up, again, it's by biblical duty to ask why after 20 years of being a Christian you would be sitting in a liberal, unbiblical church. Scripture is clear that we should be open to and thankful for biblical admonition. I've not attacked you nor am I addressing you in a condescending manner. If you take note, what I put forth I proclaimed applied to myself and all professing Christians, not just you.

If you are looking badly toward me because I'm concerned for you then I accept that. Two of the things which greatly hurt my heart is the idea of those who profess to be Christians yet will one day hear from Christ that He never knew them before He casts them into Hell, and the idea of those who profess to be Christian yet they fail to mature in Christ and not only will they suffer loss before entering heaven, there are all those such could have rigthly influenced for Christ yet they didn't because of their failure to OBey Christ.

If I were ever a member of church that went astray and I failed to separate myself from such and find a biblical church home, I would hope the Lord would send someone along to admonish me. Brothers and sisters in Christ are to help one another be sure we are in Christ and to be sure we are growing in Christ and abiding in Christ, living according to His Word, for His glory and honour. It's not very Christian of us if we sit back and watch professing Christians go the wrong way, accept false teaching, be a part of unbiblical churches, walk in adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, etc.

You call yourself my sister in Christ and thus I care about you and love you in Christ. What love would it be if I failed to act upon it?

If you profess to be a Christian and to be a follower of Christ then it's the duty of every other Christian, including myself, to help you along through reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness according to the Word of God. Loving you as my sister in Christ compels me, and should others, to desire the best for you in Christ.

There is the possibility you don't want to fully follow Christ and if you tell me that's the case then I will be saddened, I will pray for you, but I will step back and allow the Lord to reach out to you through another and/or other means.

[bzmomo7]

Actually, John, CPR is right. And pointing out that other POTUS' have used the same terminology as BO is not being liberl - it is actually being fairminded, which is vital to truth, don't you think?

The Roosevelt that said it was Franklin. He said this: "“the freedom of every person to worship God in his own way”.” I don't know what the speech contained, so he could have been explaining the 1st amendment, and I can't find the speech it was in to know if that was all there was to his statement. FDR wasn't a model POTUS, but not knowing what he meant kind of stifles being able to defend or detract from his partial statement.

Reagan said: "Religious intolerance, particularly in the Soviet Union, continues to deprive millions of the freedom to worship as they choose." That was to the UN in 1988, and was not in reference to our Constitution.

He also said: "Perhaps it’s not too much to hope that true change will come to all countries that now deny or hinder the freedom to worship God. And perhaps we’ll see that change comes through the reemergence of faith, through the irresistible power of a religious renewal. For despite all the attempts to extinguish it, the people’s faith burns with a passionate heat; once allowed to breathe free, that faith will burn so brightly it will light the world." This was at the Vatican. Please note, though, that he isn't referencing our Constitutional rights again. But he is actually explaining, a bit, what the 1st amendment was for: to allow for a religious renewal. (again, though, he was not speaking about America)

And again he said: "I know I’ve said this before, but I believe that God put this land between the two great oceans to be found by special people from every corner of the world who had that extra love for freedom that prompted them to leave their homeland and come to this land to make it a brilliant light beam of freedom to the world. It’s our gift to have visions, and I want to share that of a young boy who wrote to me shortly after I took office. In his letter he said, “I love America because you can join Cub Scouts if you want to. You have a right to worship as you please. If you have the ability, you can try to be anything you want to be. And I also like America because we have about 200 flavors of ice cream.” Well, truth through the eyes of a child: freedom of association, freedom of worship, freedom of hope and opportunity, and the pursuit of happiness — in this case, choosing among 200 flavors of ice cream — that’s America, everyone with his or her vision of the American promise." Please note: his terminology was being referenced as being through the eyes of a child. Not the meaning of the 1st amendment.

There is no record, that I can find, of Dubya using that terminology. Doesn't mean he didn't. I just can't find it.

As to the difference: BO has disdain for our Constitution. He is in the process of redefining it. He has so far been successful in stomping on the 10th amendment, at least, and shows no sign of letting up. I, personally, do not think his wording is a mistake. People who have been around a while can see "trends" and changes being worked into our system of government. And that is what is happening here, IMO.

(and, hey, John - let's not bring up CPR's church in every thread. If you want to discuss her church, do so in a separate thread...okay? thanks)

Exactly..........to all the stuff on politics. CPR, I'm glad that you considered the source a "reliable one". That was my point......that newspaper is not exactly "conservative", hence my conclusion that we OUGHT to be sounding warning bells. If you google the subject, many Christians prOBably HAVE known about this for a while, but they did not jump on the bandwagon back in Feb. when this article was written. This is 6months later, and my sil just heard a radio broadcast on the subject. They have watched, they have waited. They are seeing changes coming about. As far as the other stuff on the thread.....way off topic, and I'm not going to comment. Freedom of worship is at the core of Freedom of Religion, but it is not all inclusive of the Christian walk and the liberties that we find in the Constitution of the U.S. Therefore, we should stand up and fight for those liberties while we can (if an individual believes that it is God's will for him/her to do so) and we should make the most of our opportunities to witness to those around us, and do our best to support those in missionwork because the time is getting shorter each day and our freedom to do so on a widescale basis may be taken away in the near future.

[HappyChristian]

Amazing, you can make snide remarks to posters, them get onto someone who is on topic, time for you to take a time out! Telling them to get on topic when they are on topic addressing something some one said it their post.

Um, snide remarks? I try not to be snide when I post. I'm sorry if you've been offended in the past. But sometimes those snide remarks you're referencing aren't snide, but factual. And I don't need a time out, thank you very much. The remark I referenced was not on topic (and it wasn't addressing something that was said), and it wasn't the first time such was brought into a thread. And it is well within my purview to address it. Thank you.

[HappyChristian]

Exactly..........to all the stuff on politics. CPR, I'm glad that you considered the source a "reliable one". That was my point......that newspaper is not exactly "conservative", hence my conclusion that we OUGHT to be sounding warning bells. If you google the subject, many Christians prOBably HAVE known about this for a while, but they did not jump on the bandwagon back in Feb. when this article was written. This is 6months later, and my sil just heard a radio broadcast on the subject. They have watched, they have waited. They are seeing changes coming about. As far as the other stuff on the thread.....way off topic, and I'm not going to comment. Freedom of worship is at the core of Freedom of Religion, but it is not all inclusive of the Christian walk and the liberties that we find in the Constitution of the U.S. Therefore, we should stand up and fight for those liberties while we can (if an individual believes that it is God's will for him/her to do so) and we should make the most of our opportunities to witness to those around us, and do our best to support those in missionwork because the time is getting shorter each day and our freedom to do so on a widescale basis may be taken away in the near future.

[CPR]

Exactly..........to all the stuff on politics. CPR, I'm glad that you considered the source a "reliable one". That was my point......that newspaper is not exactly "conservative", hence my conclusion that we OUGHT to be sounding warning bells. If you google the subject, many Christians prOBably HAVE known about this for a while, but they did not jump on the bandwagon back in Feb. when this article was written. This is 6months later, and my sil just heard a radio broadcast on the subject. They have watched, they have waited. They are seeing changes coming about. As far as the other stuff on the thread.....way off topic, and I'm not going to comment. Freedom of worship is at the core of Freedom of Religion, but it is not all inclusive of the Christian walk and the liberties that we find in the Constitution of the U.S. Therefore, we should stand up and fight for those liberties while we can (if an individual believes that it is God's will for him/her to do so) and we should make the most of our opportunities to witness to those around us, and do our best to support those in missionwork because the time is getting shorter each day and our freedom to do so on a widescale basis may be taken away in the near future.

I'll agree with that. I think this is something that every American, regardless of religious affiliation, should pay close attention to. I was merely trying to point out that this could be harmless since it appears that it is sometimes used interchangeably with "freedom of religion." I think it's important that we give fair consideration to all the facts instead of jumping all over someone who we may not agree with. If we have all the facts that makes us more credible, does that make sense?

That being said, rights require us being vigilant to protect them. We have not maintained these rights for over 200 years by being passive. Our first amendment rights are so very important and any perceived attempt to chip away at them, however subtle, deserves attention.

[CPR]

If you read my post carefully you will notice my questions were not about the church you attend but about concern for you. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion I thought you were a new Christian but I assure you that was not on my mind. One can be a Christian one year and mature more in Christ than some who have professed Christ for 50 years. How long one has been in Christ isn't always an indicator or maturity or immaturity in Christ.

Since you have brought it up, again, it's by biblical duty to ask why after 20 years of being a Christian you would be sitting in a liberal, unbiblical church. Scripture is clear that we should be open to and thankful for biblical admonition. I've not attacked you nor am I addressing you in a condescending manner. If you take note, what I put forth I proclaimed applied to myself and all professing Christians, not just you.

If you are looking badly toward me because I'm concerned for you then I accept that. Two of the things which greatly hurt my heart is the idea of those who profess to be Christians yet will one day hear from Christ that He never knew them before He casts them into Hell, and the idea of those who profess to be Christian yet they fail to mature in Christ and not only will they suffer loss before entering heaven, there are all those such could have rigthly influenced for Christ yet they didn't because of their failure to OBey Christ.

If I were ever a member of church that went astray and I failed to separate myself from such and find a biblical church home, I would hope the Lord would send someone along to admonish me. Brothers and sisters in Christ are to help one another be sure we are in Christ and to be sure we are growing in Christ and abiding in Christ, living according to His Word, for His glory and honour. It's not very Christian of us if we sit back and watch professing Christians go the wrong way, accept false teaching, be a part of unbiblical churches, walk in adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, etc.

You call yourself my sister in Christ and thus I care about you and love you in Christ. What love would it be if I failed to act upon it?

If you profess to be a Christian and to be a follower of Christ then it's the duty of every other Christian, including myself, to help you along through reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness according to the Word of God. Loving you as my sister in Christ compels me, and should others, to desire the best for you in Christ.

There is the possibility you don't want to fully follow Christ and if you tell me that's the case then I will be saddened, I will pray for you, but I will step back and allow the Lord to reach out to you through another and/or other means.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I considered ignoring it, but it seems that everywhere I post lately you seem to find me and want to turn the conversation to what church I attend. I'm not sure why you think that my church is unbiblical or somehow wrong or why you think that I am not OBeying Christ or do not want to OBey Christ. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere in your concern. However, if you are sincere, then it seems to me that you would try to find out if you have cause for concern rather than attacking me or whatever you want to call it by trying to discuss my church affiliation when responding to any post I make. I will challenge you again to do this on a topic for this purpose. If you don't want to, fine. But I can't help but thinking you are somewhat misinformed about my church and me and that you wouldn't think any church I was a part of was "biblical" unless it was an IFB church.

[JerryNumbers]

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I considered ignoring it, but it seems that everywhere I post lately you seem to find me and want to turn the conversation to what church I attend. I'm not sure why you think that my church is unbiblical or somehow wrong or why you think that I am not OBeying Christ or do not want to OBey Christ. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere in your concern. However, if you are sincere, then it seems to me that you would try to find out if you have cause for concern rather than attacking me or whatever you want to call it by trying to discuss my church affiliation when responding to any post I make. I will challenge you again to do this on a topic for this purpose. If you don't want to, fine. But I can't help but thinking you are somewhat misinformed about my church and me and that you wouldn't think any church I was a part of was "biblical" unless it was an IFB church.

When someone is attending a church that I do not approve of, sometimes if I have the right opportunity I may say something to them about it. The one thing that holds me back is so many times they will see it as an attack against them and or the church they attend. So many times I do not get into such a discussion, yet sometimes I will.

All I will say is, that having read nearly every post that John has made and its numbers are above 39,000, I've never known John to attack anyone.

The only thing I read into his post is concern for you.

Plus, when one comes to a Independent Baptist forum and places in their signature that they attend an Episcopalian Church they ought to figure on comments being made about it, and possibly some one trying to show them the right way.

As for me I choose not to go to forums other than Baptist forums, just as I do not attend churches that are not of the Baptist faith. I respect their right to meet together in church and or on the internet in a forum and to discuss what so ever they chose.

Yes I know, some people believe all churches teaches the same thing, unfortunately that is untrue, and all church do not teach only Bible truths. And of course I believe we Independent Baptist teach God's truths. And I know for sure that the Episcopalian Church leads many down a false path to Christ thus giving them a false hope of being saved.

I'm going to mention a book, its name is, "The Little Baptist," and it can be downloaded in PDF format by clicking on the title of the book. Its about a young girl whose family attends a Presbyterian Church, and the battle this girl goes through trying to understand how to be saved. Edited August 25, 2010 by Jerry80871852

[CPR]

When someone is attending a church that I do not approve of, sometimes if I have the right opportunity I may say something to them about it. The one thing that holds me back is so many times they will see it as an attack against them and or the church they attend. So many times I do not get into such a discussion, yet sometimes I will.

All I will say is, that having read nearly every post that John has made and its numbers are above 39,000, I've never known John to attack anyone.

The only thing I read into his post is concern for you.

Plus, when one comes to a Independent Baptist forum and places in their signature that they attend an Episcopalian Church they ought to figure on comments being made about it, and possibly some one trying to show them the right way.

As for me I choose not to go to forums other than Baptist forums, just as I do not attend churches that are not of the Baptist faith. I respect their right to meet together in church and or on the internet in a forum and to discuss what so ever they chose.

Yes I know, some people believe all churches teaches the same thing, unfortunately that is untrue, and all church do not teach only Bible truths. And of course I believe we Independent Baptist teach God's truths. And I know for sure that the Episcopalian Church leads many down a false path to Christ thus giving them a false hope of being saved.

I'm going to mention a book, its name is, "The Little Baptist," and it can be downloaded in PDF format by clicking on the title of the book. Its about a young girl whose family attends a Presbyterian Church, and the battle this girl goes through trying to understand how to be saved.

First off, I'm going to go ahead and apologize for my part in derailing this thread.

Secondly, my signature is perhaps ill thought out. It is a joke more than anything that most people I know think is funny and I think that we should all be able to laugh at ourselves from time to time. I'll gladly remove it if it offends for the sake of harmony. Now I've been posting on this forum for awhile because I enjoy the discussion here with fellow Christians. OBviously I do not post in the IFB-only areas because I am not IFB. I was not aware that it offended anyone or anyone thought that I should not be on here. Not everyone on this forum is IFB, and it is a public forum so I wasn't aware that I was doing anything wrong.

Now you mention "show me the right way." Again, no one has ever asked me what I believe, what my church teaches, etc. Not once. So I fail to see how anyone can assume that I am going the wrong way. Just because Baptists teach the truth doesn't mean that others don't. I fail to see why an Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc cannot know God's saving grace from attending their church. I know first hand that we can and we do.

[JerryNumbers]

Oh, I did not say having Episcopalian in your signature would offend anyone, only that being this is an Independent Baptist forum you can count on someone saying something towards it.

If you would read the book, The Little Baptist, it might help you understand something about us Baptist. Its actually fiction, but the jest of the story is based upon Bible facts. When I bought this book I had no idea it was online. Its easily read and when I started it I read though page 169 with out stopping.

I would rather John discuss this with you since he stared out doing so. I just wanted you to know that I feel positive that John did not mean it as an attack. And I understand on a such subject as this that a person might see it as an attack when that is not meant.

Plus its now early morning and my mind is not working real clearly and I need to get to bed. Maybe later today we can carry it a bit further.

[John81]

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I considered ignoring it, but it seems that everywhere I post lately you seem to find me and want to turn the conversation to what church I attend. I'm not sure why you think that my church is unbiblical or somehow wrong or why you think that I am not OBeying Christ or do not want to OBey Christ. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere in your concern. However, if you are sincere, then it seems to me that you would try to find out if you have cause for concern rather than attacking me or whatever you want to call it by trying to discuss my church affiliation when responding to any post I make. I will challenge you again to do this on a topic for this purpose. If you don't want to, fine. But I can't help but thinking you are somewhat misinformed about my church and me and that you wouldn't think any church I was a part of was "biblical" unless it was an IFB church.

I don't know how much more clear I can be when I've stated nothing I've said is an attack (why are people so sensitive and quick to think this these days, it didn't used to be this way) and what I've said has to do with living for Christ. Contiually saying the issue is "your church" is ignoring the bulk of what I've said.

Whatever the name over the door of a church is, if that church is yoked with wickedness, false doctrines, and associated with those who promote ungodliness then any true Christian should be concerned about anyone who professes to be a Christian yet is attending such a church.

I've mentioned this before but you seem to keep missing it, I don't currently attend an IFB church as there are no biblical ones in the area. We attend a non-denominational church. This isn't of the oft thought of modern sort of non-denoms. This is a church that was formed as a non-denom church in the 1800s and has remained so for the sake of independence. Our pastor attended a Baptist seminary and he is fundamentally biblical in his views, teaching and preaching.

The point isn't about a particular church per se, but about following Christ and OBeying Him. Either the church we choose for our home church shows the world we are truly followers of Christ or it shows something else.

If you wish to have a thread about "your church" in order to try and defend it, that's up to you. My concern is how our lives reflect or diminish Christ and what that says about our standing in Christ.

Again, such discussion and concern is taught in Scripture and speaking of such is a matter of Christian love and is no attack at all, which should be clear.