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JerryNumbers

Prop 8 ruling: nothing 'wrong' with being gay

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Marriage, in the eyes of the state (having nothing what so ever to do with God or Christianity or any other religion), is the recognition of a legally binding contract wherein two people agree to live as partners, sharing equally in all they own (unless stipulated otherwise in a seperate agreement). In order to have a valid marriage contract, both parties must willfully intend to marry (the same as any contract - there must be a "meeting of the minds"). The reason minors cannot marry is the same reason that they cannot enter into a legally binding contract. In the eyes of the law, a minor's mind is not mature enough to comprehend the reality of marriage, and is therefore unable to form the requisite intent.

If you would just attempt to set aside your personally beliefs (only for the purpose of considering this issue) I think you would be able to understand the reasoning behind all of this. Not everyone is a Christian or even belives in a god and our laws have been carefully crafted so that the personal and religious opinions of a few cannot impede on the rights of everyone else. You must be able to differentiate between what we Christians see as a marriage in the religious sense (God's joining of one man and one woman together in an inseperable bond wherein they become one flesh) and what the state sees as marriage (a legally binding contract between two people). Now, from a Christian perspective, we know that no Court or group of people can change God's laws as they pertain to marriage or anything else. The state's sanctioning of a homosexual contract which resembles a marriage in no way legitimizes that contract in the Christian sense. However, how Christians view Christian marriage has no control (whether it should or shouldn't is not the issue) over the state. Christians don't get to define marriage for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, pagans, atheist, native Americans . . . and now, at least in CA, even homosexuals. We can't tell people that differ from us in beliefs that their marriage is invalid because it doesn't measure up to the way we see marriage, just as they can't tell us our Christian marriages are invalid because they don't measure up to the way they see marriage. The state simply does not care how the different religions and groups of people in this country see marriage in the religious sense - it is only concerned with the legal sense. This is where what is known as "equal protection" kicks in. If the state is going to recognize the marriages of Christians (in a legal sense - the state doesn't care whether your Church adequately performed the marriage per the rules of your religion), it cannot refuse to recognize the marriages of other people who are "similarly situated," such as Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, pagans, atheist, Native Americans . . . and now, at least in CA, even homosexuals.

Now, as to the argument that we should not allow homosexuals to marriage because it lends legitimacy to their lifestyle choice: How does the ability to enter into a legally binding contract lend legitimacy to the personal beliefs of a person? Does allowing Muslims to marry lend legitimacy to Islam? What about atheists? By allowing them to marry, are we somehow "supporting" the idea that there is no God? Not allowing homosexuals to enter into a binding marital agreement (contract, marriage . . . all the same in the eyes of the law) will not stop them from being homosexuals any more than not allowing them to enter into a contract to by a house together will stop them from being homosexuals. The only thing witholding a state recognized marriage does is prevents them from enjoying certain benefits that come with a state recognized contract.

As to the affect homosexual marriage will have on society: Homosexuals are allowed to live togehter as a married couple. They can own a home together, go on vacation together and even raise children together. They don't need a state recognized marriage in order to have any of the visible aspects of a marriage. What they want (the ability to file a joint tax return and have certain laws applied to their marital agreement) are all invisible. Society will never see their tax returns or their last will and testaments. Absolutely nothing, so far as we can see, will change about society should a state recognize homosexual marriage. Sure, the government's tax revenue may decrease some because more deductions are taken and our Courts may have to consider an additional heir in the event of intestate succession, but that has nothing to do with the Christian opposition to homosexual marriage to begin with. We won't to withold marriage from them based solely on our religious convictions, not because we want their tax dollars or to prevent them from inheriting from each other.

As to supporting homosexuals' right to enter into a marital agreement: I have stated time and again that I don't support homosexual marriage. In the Christian sense, I don't even believe there be such a thing, just as I don't believe there can be such a thing as a female priest - it's just not possible because it requires the Church's ordination and the Church cannot validly ordain something that is prohibited by God. But I am able to seperate what the state recognizes and what certain people believe God recognizes. And the reason I make such a separation is because I'm afraid that if the state starts making it's decisions based solely on religious reasons, then it might be me (or you) that is eventually treated differently because of religious reasons. I don't want religion (especially not someone else's religion) dictating the laws and actions of the state. For an example of why I don't want a specific group's religious beliefs dictacting the laws and actions of the state: I live in close proximitey to the beach and I enjoy swimming in the ocean and sun bathing. I of course do these things in a pair of trunks that come down to slightly above my knees and I do not wear a shirt. I know that some people, even on these boards, don't believe I should be doing such because they consider it to be immodest. That's fair, it's not my place to define what modesty is and they can believe what ever they want. However, although I support their right to believe as they want, I would not want them to be able to force those beliefs on me through the power of the state, and thereby prevent me from swimming in the ocean or sunbathing, or much worse, makeing me a criminal because I did so.

Happy: I apologize for my tone yesterday. I went back and read this thread this morning and I sounded much more like I was in a courtroom than having a discussion with a fellow Christian. I know you as a kind and intelligent lady and I in no way meant to demoralize you. When I said you had no education, I was talking about a legal education. I think part of the prOBlem was that I was not debating two differing opinions with you. You were giving an opinion and I was giving what the law says, without any regard to whether the law was right or wrong - it is what it is and our opinions have no affect on it. It was akin to me wearing a blue shirt and you sitting right in front of me and saying I was wearing an orange shirt. I assume you can understand how frustrating that could be, but, never the less, it does not excuse my tone. I sincerely apologize and hope you can forgive me. We have always had a mutual respect for one another and no matter what you say or do, I still like you too. :saint2:

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Marriage, in the eyes of the state (having nothing what so ever to do with God or Christianity or any other religion), is the recognition of a legally binding contract wherein two people agree to live as partners, sharing equally in all they own (unless stipulated otherwise in a seperate agreement). In order to have a valid marriage contract, both parties must willfully intend to marry (the same as any contract - there must be a "meeting of the minds"). The reason minors cannot marry is the same reason that they cannot enter into a legally binding contract. In the eyes of the law, a minor's mind is not mature enough to comprehend the reality of marriage, and is therefore unable to form the requisite intent.

If you would just attempt to set aside your personally beliefs (only for the purpose of considering this issue) I think you would be able to understand the reasoning behind all of this. Not everyone is a Christian or even belives in a god and our laws have been carefully crafted so that the personal and religious opinions of a few cannot impede on the rights of everyone else. You must be able to differentiate between what we Christians see as a marriage in the religious sense (God's joining of one man and one woman together in an inseperable bond wherein they become one flesh) and what the state sees as marriage (a legally binding contract between two people). Now, from a Christian perspective, we know that no Court or group of people can change God's laws as they pertain to marriage or anything else. The state's sanctioning of a homosexual contract which resembles a marriage in no way legitimizes that contract in the Christian sense. However, how Christians view Christian marriage has no control (whether it should or shouldn't is not the issue) over the state. Christians don't get to define marriage for Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, pagans, atheist, native Americans . . . and now, at least in CA, even homosexuals. We can't tell people that differ from us in beliefs that their marriage is invalid because it doesn't measure up to the way we see marriage, just as they can't tell us our Christian marriages are invalid because they don't measure up to the way they see marriage. The state simply does not care how the different religions and groups of people in this country see marriage in the religious sense - it is only concerned with the legal sense. This is where what is known as "equal protection" kicks in. If the state is going to recognize the marriages of Christians (in a legal sense - the state doesn't care whether your Church adequately performed the marriage per the rules of your religion), it cannot refuse to recognize the marriages of other people who are "similarly situated," such as Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, pagans, atheist, Native Americans . . . and now, at least in CA, even homosexuals.

Now, as to the argument that we should not allow homosexuals to marriage because it lends legitimacy to their lifestyle choice: How does the ability to enter into a legally binding contract lend legitimacy to the personal beliefs of a person? Does allowing Muslims to marry lend legitimacy to Islam? What about atheists? By allowing them to marry, are we somehow "supporting" the idea that there is no God? Not allowing homosexuals to enter into a binding marital agreement (contract, marriage . . . all the same in the eyes of the law) will not stop them from being homosexuals any more than not allowing them to enter into a contract to by a house together will stop them from being homosexuals. The only thing witholding a state recognized marriage does is prevents them from enjoying certain benefits that come with a state recognized contract.

As to the affect homosexual marriage will have on society: Homosexuals are allowed to live togehter as a married couple. They can own a home together, go on vacation together and even raise children together. They don't need a state recognized marriage in order to have any of the visible aspects of a marriage. What they want (the ability to file a joint tax return and have certain laws applied to their marital agreement) are all invisible. Society will never see their tax returns or their last will and testaments. Absolutely nothing, so far as we can see, will change about society should a state recognize homosexual marriage. Sure, the government's tax revenue may decrease some because more deductions are taken and our Courts may have to consider an additional heir in the event of intestate succession, but that has nothing to do with the Christian opposition to homosexual marriage to begin with. We won't to withold marriage from them based solely on our religious convictions, not because we want their tax dollars or to prevent them from inheriting from each other.

As to supporting homosexuals' right to enter into a marital agreement: I have stated time and again that I don't support homosexual marriage. In the Christian sense, I don't even believe there be such a thing, just as I don't believe there can be such a thing as a female priest - it's just not possible because it requires the Church's ordination and the Church cannot validly ordain something that is prohibited by God. But I am able to seperate what the state recognizes and what certain people believe God recognizes. And the reason I make such a separation is because I'm afraid that if the state starts making it's decisions based solely on religious reasons, then it might be me (or you) that is eventually treated differently because of religious reasons. I don't want religion (especially not someone else's religion) dictating the laws and actions of the state. For an example of why I don't want a specific group's religious beliefs dictacting the laws and actions of the state: I live in close proximitey to the beach and I enjoy swimming in the ocean and sun bathing. I of course do these things in a pair of trunks that come down to slightly above my knees and I do not wear a shirt. I know that some people, even on these boards, don't believe I should be doing such because they consider it to be immodest. That's fair, it's not my place to define what modesty is and they can believe what ever they want. However, although I support their right to believe as they want, I would not want them to be able to force those beliefs on me through the power of the state, and thereby prevent me from swimming in the ocean or sunbathing, or much worse, makeing me a criminal because I did so.

Happy: I apologize for my tone yesterday. I went back and read this thread this morning and I sounded much more like I was in a courtroom than having a discussion with a fellow Christian. I know you as a kind and intelligent lady and I in no way meant to demoralize you. When I said you had no education, I was talking about a legal education. I think part of the prOBlem was that I was not debating two differing opinions with you. You were giving an opinion and I was giving what the law says, without any regard to whether the law was right or wrong - it is what it is and our opinions have no affect on it. It was akin to me wearing a blue shirt and you sitting right in front of me and saying I was wearing an orange shirt. I assume you can understand how frustrating that could be, but, never the less, it does not excuse my tone. I sincerely apologize and hope you can forgive me. We have always had a mutual respect for one another and no matter what you say or do, I still like you too. :saint2:


I sincerely appreciate your apology to LuAnne and I thank you for taking the time to see the need for such and the willingness to provide such. Well done.

With regards to the topic at hand, as Christians every aspect of life is to be Christ-centered. We are to separate nothing from our Christianity.

As has been put forth before, the Constitution and laws of the land were based upon Christianity and upheld as right and legal for over 150 years. Original intent and over 150 years of precedence should be more than enough to toss challenges for homosexual "marriage" out of the court.

It's only because American in general and the ruling elite in particular are bent on dechristianizing America and legalizing immorality and sin that this is even an issue today.

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Legalizing homosexuality and same sex marriage won't change one thing - that those involved in those practices will go to an eternal, burning hell.


For a child of God to support this sin in any fashion is a sin against the Lord thy God.

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Legalizing homosexuality and same sex marriage won't change one thing - that those involved in those practices will go to an eternal, burning hell.


Yes, they will at that, but it will change things and more than one. The nation that legalizes homosexuality is responsible for that sin and will be judged for it. Those who help to make this abomination legal will be held accountable by God as well as those who accept it, tolerate it, condone it and promote it.

King David's sins effected the entire nation of Israel. Even the sin of Achan effected the whole nation of Israel.

All unrepentant sinners will go to an eternal, burning hell. We Christians are called to expose sin, speak against it, present the Gospel to the lost, be salt and light in our land and occupy until Christ returns.

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It is part of my jOB and have received a proper education in the field, so I am part of the judicial class, so to speak. But that doesn't mean I am smarter than you. It simply means I have the benefit of education and experience.


Didn't do you too good when you decided to post about your escapades at multiple sperm banks. After that little episode, can't take much of what you say seriously.

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Yes, they will at that, but it will change things and more than one. The nation that legalizes homosexuality is responsible for that sin and will be judged for it. Those who help to make this abomination legal will be held accountable by God as well as those who accept it, tolerate it, condone it and promote it.

King David's sins effected the entire nation of Israel. Even the sin of Achan effected the whole nation of Israel.

All unrepentant sinners will go to an eternal, burning hell. We Christians are called to expose sin, speak against it, present the Gospel to the lost, be salt and light in our land and occupy until Christ returns.


Your right, it will lead even more in to the sin of homosexuality, plus it will lead America as a nation deeper into sin.

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Your right, it will lead even more in to the sin of homosexuality, plus it will lead America as a nation deeper into sin.


We can look at how homosexuals have gained positions of authority even in "Christian" places, some churches have homosexual preists, some "Christian schools/seminaries" have homosexual professors, etc.

If homosexual marriage is made legal it won't be long before these degenerate "Christian" churches and schools promote homosexual marriage, perform homosexual marriages, allow homosexual married "couples" to hold authority and be promoted as "normal" and even in line with Christianity.

Those few remaining churches and Christian schools which stand on the Word of God will come under pressure not only from the world, but from the dengerate churches. It will be a short jump to having the dengerate churches hailed as the "true Christians" and those who stand on the Word of God being demonized. How long then before laws are passed against biblical churches and institutions...

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Surely, Luke 18:8 isn't so far fetched as some might think...

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

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Surely, Luke 18:8 isn't so far fetched as some might think...

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


That's a fact! Even with America fallen as far as she has, well over half the population calls themelves Christians. Yet when we look across the spectrum of professing Christians how much faith do we see? How many are walking by faith rather than by sight?

Look at how many churches today openly practice that which is sinful according to God's Word. Are these churches showing faith by accepting women pastors, homosexual pastors, unbiblical teachings on how to be right with God, becoming more like the world...?

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