Dealing with rejectors.

[ThomasCooper]

Not one time did Jesus tell her she had to bear children to be saved.

Nor did he say otherwise.

[chev1958]

Our conversation centered on the verses in Timothy 2, specifically on the Biblical requirement for women to bear children in order to be Saved.

How would women who cannot have children get to heaven? What about single women?

[Kleptes]

Nor did he say otherwise.

And your point is valid? Please read John 6:47- 58
John 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

So have you eaten Jesus' physical flesh or drank his physical blood at anytime since you were born? I would say not. So by your own admission to what the bible says, I guess you don't have eternal life right?

[CPR]

How would women who cannot have children get to heaven? What about single women?

Exactly, what about single women, children, women who are past their childbearing years when they come to Christ but never had children? What about women who are infertile?

[ThomasCooper]

How would women who cannot have children get to heaven? What about single women?

If a woman cannot have children, it is because of her transgressions! If a woman truly believes, she will be forgiven, and will be able to get a husband and to have children. How old was Sarah when Isaac was born? All a woman has to do is to truly believe. Jesus heals and Jesus provides for his faithful! Praise!

[Miss Linda]

I am interested in this conversation because it seems to directly impact me. I am physically not able to bear children according to my physician. I have always assumed that this was why God never brought a husband into my life. I accept His will and have genuinely sought to live a life that is holy and pleasing to God, and to be a blessing to those around me. I Corinthians 7:34 has been a great comfort to me: "There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband."

When I read I Corinthians 7 in it's totality, it seems to express that a virgin can, in fact, live a life pleasing to God provided she do so with modesty and in OBedience to all Scripture. I have devoted my life to serving the God I love and my brothers and sisters in Christ. I have never before encountered someone who teaches that I have no hope of salvation because I am unable to bear children.

[Annie]

I don't know whether the woman is a "pastor". Our conversation centered on the verses in Timothy 2, specifically on the Biblical requirement for women to bear children in order to be Saved. I know many people get upset for me saying that. But that's Bible for you. That's what it says. I believe it. Do you?

Brother Cooper, with all due respect, sir, this is not "Bible." It is your own flawed (perhaps uninformed?) interpretation of Scripture, and contradicts the clear teaching of God's Word on the matter of soteriology. Could I suggest that you check here and here for starters to gain a better perspective on this matter? To boil it down, there are a number of possible ways to interpret this passage that stay true to the context and meaning of the words themselves, without compromising the truth that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone for "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord."

On the other hand, your strange doctrine denies any possibility of salvation for the women mentioned in I Corinthians 7:8 and 34 (who are OBviously saved). Paul would not have encouraged women to remain single (verse 8) if by doing so they were condemned to hell. Also, he makes it very clear in verse 34 that remaining unmarried (and childless) actually enables a woman to focus more on serving God--a good thing, and something that would be impossible if that woman were not saved. Sir, think of the ramifications of your unorthdodox heresy. An unwed teenage girl is "saved" through the very act which is despicable in God's sight? Any old godless woman who has a baby is "saved"?? Yet, a virgin who remains chaste and whose life centers around loving and serving Christ can have no hope of eternal life? And, my godly friend Sharon, who cannot bear children because of a physical prOBlem is condemned to hell for that? Please.

I can only hope that you are either a "troll" (internet lingo for someone whose only aim is to post inflammatory comments to get a rise out of people), or else a new Christian who simply needs to be taught. Your language troubles me, because it is not only woefully misinformed (that part can be remedied), but also arrogant in the extreme (which is a bit harder to remedy, because it involves pride). If you're a troll, please go ahead and leave. If you want to learn, you've come to the right place, as there are several on this board who can add to your understanding of this passage.

[amblivion]

These are verses that read man but include women and children in the context of the meaning:

Genesis 6:7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 7:23
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

(If you take this literally, that means if a woman is murdered he should not be given the death penalty)

Matthew 12:19
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
(I guess woman could hear his voice in the streets)

Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man
( I guess this verse doesn't apply to women?)

Look there are several more Scriptures I could pull up. I think you get my point. There are many places in Scripture that say man but include woman too. If this were not the case, woman would not have to adhere to anything in the Bible except where it directly addresses them.

[ThomasCooper]

I am interested in this conversation because it seems to directly impact me. I am physically not able to bear children according to my physician. I have always assumed that this was why God never brought a husband into my life. I accept His will and have genuinely sought to live a life that is holy and pleasing to God, and to be a blessing to those around me. I Corinthians 7:34 has been a great comfort to me: "There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband."

When I read I Corinthians 7 in it's totality, it seems to express that a virgin can, in fact, live a life pleasing to God provided she do so with modesty and in OBedience to all Scripture. I have devoted my life to serving the God I love and my brothers and sisters in Christ. I have never before encountered someone who teaches that I have no hope of salvation because I am unable to bear children.

I only preach what the Bible says. It is late, and I will comment on Cor 7 tomorrow. What you need is to give a good thought to the following verses:

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Now ask youself, do you truly believe? Do you believe without even a shread, even a speck of doubt?

[Annie]

These are verses that read man but include women and children in the context of the meaning:

Genesis 6:7
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 7:23
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

(If you take this literally, that means if a woman is murdered he should not be given the death penalty)

Matthew 12:19
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
(I guess woman could hear his voice in the streets)

Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man
( I guess this verse doesn't apply to women?)

Look there are several more Scriptures I could pull up. I think you get my point. There are many places in Scripture that say man but include woman too. If this were not the case, woman would not have to adhere to anything in the Bible except where it directly addresses them.

Good point, amblivion. "Man" can simply mean "human"; "mankind" refers to the human race, including both males and females. Unlike Greek, English has no singular, third person neuter personal pronoun. We can say "he" or "she," but would never use "it" to refer to a person, and have no other word that means "he or she" or "her or him." Until very recently (and certainly at the time the KJV was translated), the masculine personal pronoun was invariably used to refer to both males and females, as in the following example: Parents, please make sure that your child brings his supplies to school on September 5. (Does that mean that female children did not need to bring their supplies? No.)

Later, as things got more "politically correct," proper English usage changed as follows: Parents, please make sure that your child brings his or her supplies to school on September 5.

Now, I often see both genders used interchangeably in the same article/paragraph, such as in the following example:
When your child is first born, she cannot see OBjects clearly if they are more than 6 inches away from her face. But as your baby grows, his eyesight will become stronger.

Certainly, there are instances in the KJV Bible when the word "man" refers specifically to a male person, but it also can mean "human" (no gender specified), even when in the masculine gender, for the same reasons I mentioned above: the masculine usage encompasses both genders in such instances. Edited July 29, 2010 by Annie

[CPR]

I only preach what the Bible says. It is late, and I will comment on Cor 7 tomorrow. What you need is to give a good thought to the following verses:

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Now ask youself, do you truly believe? Do you believe without even a shread, even a speck of doubt?

That is ridiculous. God does not give us everything we want just because we ask and we know and believe that he could. We live in a fallen world and our bodies are not perfect. Being a Christian and praying isn't a magic fix for everything bad that happens. It does mean that God has a plan for us and he will show us something better than we could have ever imagined. It doesn't mean that he is a genie in a bottle that will grant our wishes.

[ThomasCooper]

Good point, amblivion. "Man" can simply mean "human"; "mankind" refers to the human race, including both males and females. Unlike Greek, English has no singular neuter personal pronoun. We can say "he" or "she," but would never use "it" to refer to a person, and have no other word that means "he or she" or "her or him." Until very recently (and certainly at the time the KJV was translated), the masculine personal pronoun was invariably used to refer to both males and females, as in the following example: Parents, please make sure that your child brings his supplies to school on September 5. (Does that mean that female children do not need to bring their supplies? No.)

Later, as things got more "politically correct," proper English usage changed as follows: Parents, please make sure that your child brings his or her supplies to school on September 5.

Now, I often see both genders used interchangeably in the same article/paragraph, such as in the following example:
When your child is first born, she cannot see OBjects clearly if they are more than 6 inches away from her face. But as your baby grows, his eyesight will become stronger.

Certainly, there are instances in the KJV Bible when the word "man" refers specifically to a male person, but it also can mean "human" (no gender specified).

What you are proposing can only be true if you throw out all the teachings on the role and place of women. I'll present here a short sermon that summarizes such:

Women are active in instigating to iniquity (Numbers 31:15-16; 1 Kings 21:25; Nehemiah 13:26). Women are fond of self-indulgence (Isaiah 32:9-11). Women are silly and easily led into error (2 Timothy 3:6). Women are subtle and deceitful (Proverbs 7:10; Ecclesiastes 7:26). Women are zealous in promoting superstition and idolatry (Jeremiah 7:18; Ezekiel 13:17, 23. All of this is why women are subordinate to men (1 Corinthians 11:3). Women were created for men (1 Corinthians 11:9) to be a helpers of men (Genesis 2:18, 20). Women are to submissive and respectful to their husbands (1 Peter 3:6; Genesis 18:12). Women are always to OBey their husbands (1 Corinthians 14:34; Titus 2:5) and be subject to their husbands (Genesis 3:16; Ephesians 5:22, 24; 1 Peter 3:1). And by all means, women are to remain silent in church, never exercising authority over men (1 Timothy 2:11-12). After all, women's inherent tendency to sin is what led to men being cast from Eden onto Earth. Women are cursed (Genesis 3:16) because the first of them was deceived by Satan (Genesis 3:1-6; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:14). Consequently, a woman's only hope for salvation is through childbearing (1 Timothy 2:14-15) in addition to having to be born again.

A demonstration of comparative monetary value of women is aptly given in Leviticus 27:3-7

And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

Again, these are not "mine" teaching but what anyone can simply read in the Bible.

BTW, I commend you on being a preacher's wife and a mother to five children. Edited July 29, 2010 by ThomasCooper

[amblivion]

You still have not refuted that man can mean anyone in certain contexts in the Bible. In order to refute this you will have to throw out the Greek! Look it up yourself.

[Pastor Matt]

If a woman cannot have children, it is because of her transgressions! If a woman truly believes, she will be forgiven, and will be able to get a husband and to have children.

You mind me asking what verses in the Bible supports this? Thanks

[ptwild]

ThomasCooper: Are you a pastor/minister? If so, do you mind me asking where you did your training and who ordained you?