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JerryNumbers

Ground Zero Mosque Should Not Be Built

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Just to let you know, pt - koti has been on the ladies forum longer than she's been over here. And to question her conversion just because she hasn't posted as many posts as others equates you with God, as you accused others in your previous post. She was muslim and is now Christian, and instead of questioning her you should be rejoicing that she is saved out of that false politico-religious system.

As to passing out tracts in Dearborn: how do you know? You live in the south, not in MI, let alone Dearborn. And you are dead wrong. There were Christians arrested this year in Dearborn.
You can read it here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2538820/posts
You can watch the vids here: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026594.php

Dearborn is not the only place where Christians get into trouble for trying to witness. You need to get your head out of the sand, brother!

As to the shootings at Fort Hood, that guy was not a mental case. He actually was a counselor, himself. The media tried to portray him as suffering from some kind of symapthetic PTSD, but it was shown that he actually wasn't (and, voila, no more was heard...). But that he was a follower of an imam who is virulently anti-American - and, yes, it was established that his religious/political (in Islam they are one and the same)beliefs influenced him. Sorry to burst your bubble, but he was a terrorist, "serving" in the US Army. That kinda scares me for my son.

And let's not forget about the muslims who tried to get onto Fort Dix with intention (and ability) of doing some major harm...Let's not forget about the muslims who shot the USS Cole. Let's not forget about the FIRST attempt at the WTC - by muslims. The list could go on.

Islam is a politico-religious system, and as such doesn't rate protection under the first amendment. It is diametrically opposed to the Constitution and as such should be put out of our country. And, please, cut out the feeble protestations that our thoughts are based on emotions. You're starting to sound kinda emotional about it. :icon_mrgreen:


:amen:

I've seen nothing but good posts from koti and now that you mention it I do recall her posting somewhere that she had been on the ladies forum for some time.

As to the rest, thanks for taking the time to find those links and the rest deserves a big :thumb:

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Just to let you know, pt - koti has been on the ladies forum longer than she's been over here. And to question her conversion just because she hasn't posted as many posts as others equates you with God, as you accused others in your previous post. She was muslim and is now Christian, and instead of questioning her you should be rejoicing that she is saved out of that false politico-religious system.

As to passing out tracts in Dearborn: how do you know? You live in the south, not in MI, let alone Dearborn. And you are dead wrong. There were Christians arrested this year in Dearborn.
You can read it here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2538820/posts
You can watch the vids here: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026594.php

Dearborn is not the only place where Christians get into trouble for trying to witness. You need to get your head out of the sand, brother!

As to the shootings at Fort Hood, that guy was not a mental case. He actually was a counselor, himself. The media tried to portray him as suffering from some kind of symapthetic PTSD, but it was shown that he actually wasn't (and, voila, no more was heard...). But that he was a follower of an imam who is virulently anti-American - and, yes, it was established that his religious/political (in Islam they are one and the same)beliefs influenced him. Sorry to burst your bubble, but he was a terrorist, "serving" in the US Army. That kinda scares me for my son.

And let's not forget about the muslims who tried to get onto Fort Dix with intention (and ability) of doing some major harm...Let's not forget about the muslims who shot the USS Cole. Let's not forget about the FIRST attempt at the WTC - by muslims. The list could go on.

Islam is a politico-religious system, and as such doesn't rate protection under the first amendment. It is diametrically opposed to the Constitution and as such should be put out of our country. And, please, cut out the feeble protestations that our thoughts are based on emotions. You're starting to sound kinda emotional about it. :icon_mrgreen:


I did look up the Dearborn, MI issue and, as I stated earlier, the folks involved were not arrested for handing out "tracts." They were arrested for disturbing the peace. I'm sure if are in fact innocent that a jury of their peers has acquitted them.

As far as the USS Cole and the first WTC bombing, I believe we were talking about the past ten years here in the U.S.

And I love the new buzz word/phrase of politico-religious. Very cute.

In the end, I am much more scared of people who take measures to prevent me from practicing my rights than I am of the gentleman across the hall that helped my fix my sink and who gets my mail for me while I'm on vacation.

What exactly are you suggesting we do Happy? Expel each and every Muslim, whether they are a U.S. citizen or not, from our country?

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For some reason I find many of your assertions hard to believe. Maybe it's because you only have 25 post and you just so happened to magically appear here with your "conversion" story at the same time that this issue became a topic. Additionally, it is absolutely not true that a Christian cannot hand out a "tract" in Dearborn, MI, or anywhere else for that matter, yet a Muslim can. That would be a fundamental violation of civil liberties that would be corrected by any Court of competent jurisdiction. And just so we are clear, the public school system in this nation does not exists for the children of Christians to evangelize everyone else. It upsets me as it is to have my tax dollars go to such an ineffective system, it would upset me even more if the children weren't there actually learning, but instead there spreading their religious beliefs. It's simply not what the schools are set up for. Furthermore, any child can pray at any time he or she wishes in school. I pray several times a day and no one knows it. I just sit in my office, bow my head and pray. You don't have to pull out a bible and stand on top of a desk to pray, you don't even have to do it out loud. God hears you even when you don't have a megaphone in your hand. If you would just read a few of the school prayer cases, you would see that in almost every circumstance, the child's "prayer" involves some outlandish interruption of the class and it is OBvious that the child's interest is not in being able to pray, but in spreading his or her message.

This whole business about every Muslim just waiting for the "right time" to turn on us and kill us is nothing more than fear mongering propaganda. It is becoming more and more OBvious that a few folks around here's prOBlem with the mosque in NY isn't its location, it's the fact that it is being built period. You don't like religions that are different from your own (which is your right) and you want to use government to limit their ability to exists (not your right). How far away from ground zero would be an appropriate location for this mosque? Mayber 2 1/2 blocks? 10 blocks? Or 3,000 miles away in the Middle East?

While making these fanciful arguments about concerns for our safety and the like, let's not forget that you are far more likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack carried out by an extremist Christian in this country than you are from one carried out by an extremist Muslim.

One last point, and just so we are on the same page: we are not debating about whether or not to let them build their mosque. That's not up to me and you or anyone else. Our Constitution, the same document that allows you to build your church, has already decided that these people can build their mosque. You and I can debate about whether it is insensitive or about whether or not the existing structure should have been given landmark status, but our beliefs and opinions have absolutely no bearing on whether or not the mosque will be built. It will be built, exactly where they want it, and there isn't a thing you and I or anyone else can do about it. And that is something you should be thankful for.


Excuse me but I was here before this thread started... Do not believe the story in Dearborn?

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=169577

Would you like proof of my past as a muslim.. I could provide you with many of pics. Why would I lie about it? So because you can't debate the points I make you turn it into a personal attack?

As to our constitution... It does provide freedom of religion as long as your religion doesn't cause harm to others... Hmmm a whole religion that teaches to hate and kill us I guess isn't harmful.

BTW, prayer in school... oddly though.. muslims are allowed to leave in the middle of class to go to office and pray...but christians can't... hmmmm...

And there is something that can be done about it... God can put roadblocks in their way and I pray God does.

I will not continue to debate with someone who resorts to personal attacks which is how you opened your post. I have been nothing but honest.

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And now the imam of the proposed "community center" (why would they need an imam for that...) is being flown to the middle east: paid for by US taxpayers...


'community center' the new pc word for mosque is why. Many mosques are now called Islamic center of (insert name of city). It is a fairly new trend. Regardless of what the majority of floors will be used for there will be at least 1 if not 2 (one for men, one for women)dedicated to prayer and lessons. Therefore making it a mosque.

Thank you to those who defended me.

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Excuse me but I was here before this thread started... Do not believe the story in Dearborn?

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=169577

Would you like proof of my past as a muslim.. I could provide you with many of pics. Why would I lie about it? So because you can't debate the points I make you turn it into a personal attack?

As to our constitution... It does provide freedom of religion as long as your religion doesn't cause harm to others... Hmmm a whole religion that teaches to hate and kill us I guess isn't harmful.

BTW, prayer in school... oddly though.. muslims are allowed to leave in the middle of class to go to office and pray...but christians can't... hmmmm...

And there is something that can be done about it... God can put roadblocks in their way and I pray God does.

I will not continue to debate with someone who resorts to personal attacks which is how you opened your post. I have been nothing but honest.


If you are indeed a former muslim I'll apologize for questioning your conversion. I will not, however, apologize for having my suspicions raised. They are more than justified considering the facts.

Were you taught to hate and kill when you were a Muslim. And if so, please pm the name and location of the Mosque and Iman that taught you to do so. I can forward the information to people who can address these issues. Never the less, the fact of the matter is that Islam can be practiced without its adherents killing or otherwise harming anyone, the OBviousness of which is manifested in the reallity that not every Muslim kills or harms anyone. We don't ban (or whatever it is your suggesting we do) an entire religion just because certain fragments of its members fail to abide by our laws. If we are prepared to do away with entire religions because their members' beliefs may escalate to violence, then I think it is best if we do away with all religions.

With regards to prayer in public schools, it is an entirely different situation to allow Muslim children to leave class for their prayer time (which is required, as I understand it, by Islam) than to allow a Christian child to use the classroom as a platform to spread the gospel. If Christianity required its adherents to pray five times a day by devoutly kneeling, then our schools would be required to make adequate provisions. However, it doesn't require that and, in fact, requires the opposite. You are trying to compare apples to oranges and, of course, its just not going to add up.

And you'll have to forgive me, but these little "articles" you guys keep posting about the Dearborn, MI issue are frankly just not credible. It is OBvious that they are put out by organizations with an OBvious bias with the intent of conveying a message with little regard to the facts and the law. The case that resulted from the Dearborn, MI issue is styled George Saigh v. City of Dearborn, 2010 WL 2382447 (E.D. Mich. 2010). If you bother to read the court's decision (it's only 28 pages and offers a good explanation of our law with regards to free speech), you will notice a few things these little articles leave out. First and foremost, the Christian "victims" were in fact breaking the law. They did not have the permits to be distributing information or selling merchandise which were required of anyone desiring to participate in the festival. Second, they were arrested for disturbing the peace, not for what they were saying. Telling enough, the video imbeded in your link only shows the events after the arrests were made. Did you not wonder why it didn't show their actions which led to the arrest? That didn't even make you question their credibility? Saying they were arrested for sharing the gospel with muslims is akin to me wearing a blue shirt to a gay pride rally, causing a disturbance and then after being arrested, claiming that I was arrested for wearing a blue shirt. The Court correctly points out that our right to free speech doesn't equate to "a right communicate one's view at all times and places in any manner desired." Just as with the children who bring these "school prayer" cases, it is OBvious that these peoples' intent was to cause a controversy, and when they succeeded in doing so, the local authorities rightly enforced the law.

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For some reason I find many of your assertions hard to believe. Maybe it's because you only have 25 post and you just so happened to magically appear here with your "conversion" story at the same time that this issue became a topic. Additionally, it is absolutely not true that a Christian cannot hand out a "tract" in Dearborn, MI, or anywhere else for that matter, yet a Muslim can.


Please find out information from posters before you start making accusations about them. Thank you.

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OBviously nothing put forth here will turn some professing Christians away from defending and supporting a false religion which sends millions to hell and prevents millions from hearing the Gospel. The same false religion which is persecuting Christians around the world up to and including murder and mass murder.

Scripture says Christians are to stand against ungodliness, to expose the evil of false religions, to oppose such, to promote the Kingdom of God.

By what some professing Christians have contended here, Elijah should have accepted the religion of Baal. After all, the government sanctioned them and many of their followers were "good people". Of course if we read the Word of God we learn that's not how God sees it and that's not how true men (and women) of God respond to such.

We can't stand for Christ and wickedness at the same time. Will we choose to serve God or the ungodly?

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OBviously nothing put forth here will turn some professing Christians away from defending and supporting a false religion which sends millions to hell and prevents millions from hearing the Gospel. The same false religion which is persecuting Christians around the world up to and including murder and mass murder.

Scripture says Christians are to stand against ungodliness, to expose the evil of false religions, to oppose such, to promote the Kingdom of God.

By what some professing Christians have contended here, Elijah should have accepted the religion of Baal. After all, the government sanctioned them and many of their followers were "good people". Of course if we read the Word of God we learn that's not how God sees it and that's not how true men (and women) of God respond to such.

We can't stand for Christ and wickedness at the same time. Will we choose to serve God or the ungodly?



John, with all due respect, you are totally missing the point. I am not supporting Islam. It is a "false religion" and its adherents need to be exposed to the gospel should they have any hope for salvation. But that's not what we are talking about. It has been suggested here that we use our civil government to control those who believe differently than we do. That we take away their rights and treat them differently than we ourselves expect to be treated. These are two totally different things.

I don't think it is clear what some of the folks around here are suggesting we do with Muslims, but it appears they want to either ban the practice of their religion, or expell them from the country altogether. That is what I am against. I don't believe you or me or anyone else has the right to do that. This is a free country where I am glad I can worship who I want when and how I want. If I don't want that right taken from me, I shouldn't expect to be able to take it from someone else.

And if we are willing to go down that road here in the U.S., that is, to remove all "false religions" then we better be ready for the creation of a Chruch State, where there is one body that defines exactly what is and is not a "false religion" and we better be ready for the consequences of such.

The comparison with Elijah and Baal is totally inapplicable. Elijah did not have to circuMVent a free republic which he enjoyed the privileges of in order to oppose Baal in the manner in which he did.

What you are talking about is launching your own "jihad" (possibly nonviolent, but I don't see these ideas going over without a fight) against any and all non Christian faiths, as defined by your own personal beliefs and opinions. I'm sorry, but I just don't want that. In fact, that is exactly what I am scared of and I think it is what our founding fathers were scared of when they drafted the first amendment.

We as Chrsitans can "stand up against" Islam without having to manipulate the basic freedoms afforded to us by our government.

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John, with all due respect, you are totally missing the point. I am not supporting Islam. It is a "false religion" and its adherents need to be exposed to the gospel should they have any hope for salvation. But that's not what we are talking about. It has been suggested here that we use our civil government to control those who believe differently than we do. That we take away their rights and treat them differently than we ourselves expect to be treated. These are two totally different things.

I don't think it is clear what some of the folks around here are suggesting we do with Muslims, but it appears they want to either ban the practice of their religion, or expell them from the country altogether. That is what I am against. I don't believe you or me or anyone else has the right to do that. This is a free country where I am glad I can worship who I want when and how I want. If I don't want that right taken from me, I shouldn't expect to be able to take it from someone else.

And if we are willing to go down that road here in the U.S., that is, to remove all "false religions" then we better be ready for the creation of a Chruch State, where there is one body that defines exactly what is and is not a "false religion" and we better be ready for the consequences of such.

The comparison with Elijah and Baal is totally inapplicable. Elijah did not have to circuMVent a free republic which he enjoyed the privileges of in order to oppose Baal in the manner in which he did.

What you are talking about is launching your own "jihad" (possibly nonviolent, but I don't see these ideas going over without a fight) against any and all non Christian faiths, as defined by your own personal beliefs and opinions. I'm sorry, but I just don't want that. In fact, that is exactly what I am scared of and I think it is what our founding fathers were scared of when they drafted the first amendment.

We as Chrsitans can "stand up against" Islam without having to manipulate the basic freedoms afforded to us by our government.


What is the supreme law for Christians, the Constitution or the Bible?

Elijah did goe against the government in order to confront the false religion of Baal. Baal worship was the preferred religion, protected by the king and queen. Elijah stood against them and he continually denounced the king and queen for their support of Baal.

Christians are to be the salt and light, Christians are to occupy until Christ returns. If Christians can shine the light upon government so that it does right, if Christians can season others to do right, then that's a good thing. In fact, this country was founded with such in mind.

Beyond any of that, it's a sin for Christians to support the false religion of Islam which literally leads millions to hell (has already led millions there previously), actively works against the proclaiming of the Gospel, and is persecuting even to the point of killing Christians around the world. The Bible is clear on this and attempting to wrap oneself in the Constitution, rationalism, or anything else doesn't change this.

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What is the supreme law for Christians, the Constitution or the Bible?

Elijah did goe against the government in order to confront the false religion of Baal. Baal worship was the preferred religion, protected by the king and queen. Elijah stood against them and he continually denounced the king and queen for their support of Baal.

Christians are to be the salt and light, Christians are to occupy until Christ returns. If Christians can shine the light upon government so that it does right, if Christians can season others to do right, then that's a good thing. In fact, this country was founded with such in mind.

Beyond any of that, it's a sin for Christians to support the false religion of Islam which literally leads millions to hell (has already led millions there previously), actively works against the proclaiming of the Gospel, and is persecuting even to the point of killing Christians around the world. The Bible is clear on this and attempting to wrap oneself in the Constitution, rationalism, or anything else doesn't change this.


Fair enough. Then please state definitively what it is you are suggesting we do with/to the Muslims in our country.

As to the comparison to Elijah and his opposition to Baal, no one is suggesting you can't oppose Islam and that you can't criticize your government. However, Elijah did not use the government against Baal.

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Fair enough. Then please state definitively what it is you are suggesting we do with/to the Muslims in our country.

As to the comparison to Elijah and his opposition to Baal, no one is suggesting you can't oppose Islam and that you can't criticize your government. However, Elijah did not use the government against Baal.


Elijah, as well as other prophets, did attempt to get the government to do right with regards to Baal and other false religions.

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Elijah, as well as other prophets, did attempt to get the government to do right with regards to Baal and other false religions.


What did they try to get the government to do?

What are you suggesting that we do the Muslims in this country?

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pt - that apology was not an apology at all. "If you indeed are...then I'll..." is a very political style apology. For shame.

And, although you intended it as sarcasm, I will take your "very cute" toward my usage of politico-religious as a compliment. :icon_mrgreen: It is an apt description of the islamic system.

You claim to fear those who would take away your rights, and yet you support the idea of an oligarchy, which is absolutely not Constitutional - but that's okay, you only use the Constitution when you want to. All other times it's a weak document, right? (that is what you've said in the past...)

And do not assume that I am advocating removing all muslims from the US. I am not. I do, however, believe that during this time of war, all non-citizen muslims should be sent home - visas revoked and everything. I don't apologize for that either, and I don't care it it insults anyone, either.

I also believe that, since islam is not just a religion, mosques, imams and acolytes are fair game for investigation (and don't pull the "what if a terrorist put $5 in your church's offering plate..." Churches are monitored closer than you might think - and that's all I can say about that). This system is using the rights granted to US citizens to undermine and destroy our country. I know you don't get it - even if you realize islam is a false religion, you OBviously don't understand the depths to which they've gone, and the lengths they've reached in this country. Pity. But BECAUSE it is also political in nature, islam does not qualify for first amendment protection. There have been American citizens who have become muslim, been influenced by imams in mosques in America and have gone overseas to train to join the jihad against America. Recruiting terrorists right on our own soil...NOT protected under any part of the Constitution.

As to the "articles" posted - you OBviously didn't view that video. Yep, they were the ones it happened to, but it's kinda OBvious what happened. It's not the first time, either. And they aren't the first group. You can go on believing that islam is a peaceful religion (even as supposedly practiced here in the US) all you want. You're fooling yourself. But that's your choice.

I'm done here. I don't want to continue arguing. I've set forth my thoughts on the matter, and am perfectly assured that they are neither unBiblical nor unConstitutional. America is in trouble, and part of it is coming from people who do not recognize islam for what it is and for what its goals are.

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pt - that apology was not an apology at all. "If you indeed are...then I'll..." is a very political style apology. For shame.

And, although you intended it as sarcasm, I will take your "very cute" toward my usage of politico-religious as a compliment. :icon_mrgreen: It is an apt description of the islamic system.

You claim to fear those who would take away your rights, and yet you support the idea of an oligarchy, which is absolutely not Constitutional - but that's okay, you only use the Constitution when you want to. All other times it's a weak document, right? (that is what you've said in the past...)

And do not assume that I am advocating removing all muslims from the US. I am not. I do, however, believe that during this time of war, all non-citizen muslims should be sent home - visas revoked and everything. I don't apologize for that either, and I don't care it it insults anyone, either.

I also believe that, since islam is not just a religion, mosques, imams and acolytes are fair game for investigation (and don't pull the "what if a terrorist put $5 in your church's offering plate..." Churches are monitored closer than you might think - and that's all I can say about that). This system is using the rights granted to US citizens to undermine and destroy our country. I know you don't get it - even if you realize islam is a false religion, you OBviously don't understand the depths to which they've gone, and the lengths they've reached in this country. Pity. But BECAUSE it is also political in nature, islam does not qualify for first amendment protection. There have been American citizens who have become muslim, been influenced by imams in mosques in America and have gone overseas to train to join the jihad against America. Recruiting terrorists right on our own soil...NOT protected under any part of the Constitution.

As to the "articles" posted - you OBviously didn't view that video. Yep, they were the ones it happened to, but it's kinda OBvious what happened. It's not the first time, either. And they aren't the first group. You can go on believing that islam is a peaceful religion (even as supposedly practiced here in the US) all you want. You're fooling yourself. But that's your choice.

I'm done here. I don't want to continue arguing. I've set forth my thoughts on the matter, and am perfectly assured that they are neither unBiblical nor unConstitutional. America is in trouble, and part of it is coming from people who do not recognize islam for what it is and for what its goals are.


You've been done here. And I did watch the video, that's how I know it doesn't bother to show what they were arrested for. Luckily for the rest of us, i.e. U.S. citizens, your interpretation of our constitution and understanding of our rights is irrelevant. You are right about one thing, I do believe that the oligarchy we have been operating under since day one in this country is the proper way of doing things. People must be kept in check less their own devices take control. Most humans are very dangerous creatures.

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You've been done here. And I did watch the video, that's how I know it doesn't bother to show what they were arrested for. Luckily for the rest of us, i.e. U.S. citizens, your interpretation of our constitution and understanding of our rights is irrelevant. You are right about one thing, I do believe that the oligarchy we have been operating under since day one in this country is the proper way of doing things. People must be kept in check less their own devices take control. Most humans are very dangerous creatures.

Okay - I read this just out of curiosity, without intent to comment, because I don't want to continue. But, pt, you've gone too far. I've "been done here?" I cannot imagine but that your comment was intended as an insult, as you can be uber insulting at times, since you believe that you are so far above others intellectually.

Lucky for me your opinions are irrelevant as well.

A Republic is not an oligarchy.

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Okay - I read this just out of curiosity, without intent to comment, because I don't want to continue. But, pt, you've gone too far. I've "been done here?" I cannot imagine but that your comment was intended as an insult, as you can be uber insulting at times, since you believe that you are so far above others intellectually.

Lucky for me your opinions are irrelevant as well.

A Republic is not an oligarchy.


Your opinion on this topic insults itself. And pointing out the rule of law is nothing more than bringing attention to facts, which has nothing to do with an assertion of intelligence. Me knowing something that you don't does not mean I am more intelligent than you nor does it mean I claim or believe I am more intelligent. That is merely how you perceive it.

A republic doesn't have to be an oligarchy, but I believe the Ivy League educated sons and daughters of wealth and privilege that rule this country would agree that in America's case, it most certainly is. And rightfully so.

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Your opinion on this topic insults itself. And pointing out the rule of law is nothing more than bringing attention to facts, which has nothing to do with an assertion of intelligence. Me knowing something that you don't does not mean I am more intelligent than you nor does it mean I claim or believe I am more intelligent. That is merely how you perceive it.

A republic doesn't have to be an oligarchy, but I believe the Ivy League educated sons and daughters of wealth and privilege that rule this country would agree that in America's case, it most certainly is. And rightfully so.

People are entitled to opinions, whether you like them or not. And you can assume whatever you want that insults whatever: that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, right or wrong.

You HAVE claimed to be more intelligent and more learned in the past, pt. It isn't just how I perceive it - it is how you've described it.

THIS Republic was not founded as an oligarchy; it was founded on a government of, by and for those peons you seem to despise. WE the PEOPLE, not we the Ivy League educated. WE the PEOPLE are to rule, not a select few snOBs. Regardless of the opinions of those "sons and daughters."

I am locking this topic.

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