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JerryNumbers

Ground Zero Mosque Should Not Be Built

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No, I never said what you accused Jerry and I of saying.

You can stick your head in the sand if you want to. Contemporary as well as the entire historical record of Islam says just what I've posted. The evidence is all around you from within this country to many other countries around the world today.

There is no need to take anything out of context from their "holy book", read it yourself, it's all there in clear terms and in context. Find a factual book on the history of Islam, not some modern PC sugarcoated edition, but a real book of history. Islam is a militant religion with a specific part of every Muslim to play in the conquering of the world for "allah".

What's the point about lots of Muslims dying every day? So do lots of others and without Christ they are all going to hell.

No, we are not fighting alongside Muslims in our war on terror, there are some Muslims going by the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and using America in an attempt to rid them of their rivals. They are in no way out to stop the Islamification of the world. Iran was once a "friend" of America, as was Iraq. Turkey, Lebonon, etc....

I've lived long enough to personally see the results of denying reality in such situations. I've been blessed to know many good men who were born in the late 1800s to early 1900s who knew first hand how blessed America once was and how reality and common sense were the rule prior to the rise of what would eventually become the PC era.

Even if one chooses to ignore these realities, if one professes to be a Christian they should be standing against such a terrible false religion as Islam which is leading millions to hell, killing/has killed millions who will/did go to hell, actively seeks to prevent Christians from presenting the Gospel to Muslims, and is intent upon refuting and eradicating the truth about Christ.


Maybe I'm confused. Have you not said that Islam is a "militant religion" and that "every Muslim" has a "part to play in the conquering of the whole world . . .?" And if I'm not confused (which I'm not, by the way), then please explain the difference between saying these things and saying "every Muslim is a terrorists." Just to clear up any further confusion, I define "terrorist" as anyone who supports the use of or uses terror to further his or her cause, which includes not only those that implement the terror, but also those that fund them and direct their operations.

The prOBlem with your position John is the facts as I see them. Why should I believe what you and other uncredible sources say about Islam rather than what history and reality has showed me? Why should I believe that my neighbor, who is a good husband to his wife and a good father to his children and who helps when I am in need, is really this evil conspirator just waiting until the right time to kill me? It is OBvious not all Muslims are terrorists. The previous statement about Muslims dying everyday was meant to show that the vast majority of Muslims live a full and complete life on this earth without ever having any part in terrorism or "the conquering of the world," or whatever it is you want to call it.

What do you say about the Muslims serving in our military? Are they really terrorist whose "part to play" is killing other terrorist until the right time comes for them to kill non-Muslims?

If Islam was all about conquering and killing, then what are they waiting for? They've had almost two thousand years to gather their forces together to launch this mythical world attack, yet all we see is the ever so often crudely planned attack that usually only kills their own kind. If every Muslim is in on it, then why don't they just form a super army and start the invasion? They have the money. They have all the resources. The fact of the matter is that these people that you describe are only a small element, just like extremists Christian organizations (which for some reason or another are rarely even addressed here, much less denounced), that have no far reaching influence or control. That's why their attacks are usually petty assualts on civilians that have little to no lasting affects whatsoever.

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There is no "may be" about it. There have been muslims living in peace us in this country for generations. In my city alone there are three or four mosques and/or islamic centers and we have never had one iota of trouble with them. My neighbors are muslims and they detest Al Queda prOBably more so than most Americans because, not only do they find terrorism counter to their core beliefs, but also because of people like Jerry and John who now think that every muslim is a suicide bomber just waiting to launch their own jihad against us.

I would venture to say that most, if not all, the people on this board that hold this view either live in a very rural area that has no muslims, or they live in a very closed society in which they never interact with the muslims around them. All of their information about Islam comes from inflammatory websites or tag lines taken from the Koran with no muslim commentary about how said lines are to be interpreted. As CPR said previously, it's a matter of of either being uninformed or misinformed. It appears that this view (that all muslims are terrorist) did not exists until 9/11. It's as if people have forgoten that Islam has been with us since the 7th century and that muslims and Christians have been living side by side in many nations since that time.

There is no doubt that Islam, like Christianity, has an extremists element within it. However, like Christianity, the vast amount of evience suggests these extremists are a small minority. I have been to Cairo (the largest Muslim city on the planet) and Dubai and I was always treated with respect and civility. I would even say that those two muslim nations reminded me a lot more of home(the American South) than some European countries I have visted because of their courtesy, modesty and hospitality. I spoke to a muslim guard outside of the Hanging Church in Cairo (one of the oldest Christian Churches in the world) about why he was there (he was in full uniform bearing an assault rifle). He said that he, a Muslim, was there to guard the Christian Church against possible attacks. I didn't realize the irony of that situation until reading this thread.


How many times have you gone into one of those mosques and listened to what was preached? I went on a daily basis for 10 years... What is preached is not as nice and innocent as many would have you believe. Usually the lecture is first given in arabic and then in english. Oddly the two messages are never quite the same.. the one in arabic tends to be a little bit more stern and hateful whereas the english one for the non arabic speaking people (i.e. visitors and new reverts) is often kinder.

There are many muslims who live peacefully... yes... but i promise you...many of those that think you are so sweet and nice and innocent are the same ones who as soon as you turn your back call you a liar, say you are dirty, and call you an idol worshipper.

Muslims are taught to not befriend christians... The quran teaches this...so do the ahadith.

I spent 10 years as a muslim... I know what really goes on in most mosques. Even the peaceful kind muslims are not as peaceful or kind as they appear. During my years as a muslim, I travelled all over the US and some parts of the Middle East... my experience is not from just one mosque but from many across the US.

I am not anti muslim... I am anti islam. I honestly feel bad for most muslims because they have no idea the lies and brainwashing they have fallen for... with that said... I also know not to trust that any muslim I see or speak to because they are not always as they appear.

There is truth to the whole can't say all muslims are bad because of the few who commit terrorist acts BUT again I say... by the time you figure out who is bad and who isn't...it is usually too late.

The purpose of this whole mosque/center thingy on Ground Zero is purely out of spite. There is no denying muslims were behind the acts of 9-11. How tactless do you have to be to want to build something on the same ground that people of their religion killed so many innocent people? If it was to promote understanding then they would at least be decent enough to build away from Ground Zero.

As you sit here defending a group that I highly doubt you have seen in their place of worship as much as I have, keep in mind...what you see in public and what is taught and how people act in the mosque is two completely different things!

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You just said it again. And you have absolutely no evidence that all of the millions of muslims across the planet are funneling money to "armed elements" or that they are lying in wait for the right moment to kill us. They come to this country for the same reasons as almost all immigrants: for a better life for themselves and their families. They work hard, pay their taxes and mind their business like everyone else should be doing.

You do realize that hundreds of thousands of muslims die everyday without ever harming anyone or funding terrorists organizations, don't you? Surely you know that we are fighting along side muslims in our war on terrorism, that we have muslims in our military putting their lives on the line so that you and I can have the freedoms we enjoy.

And as far as their holy book demanding that they lie, cheat, steal and kill, I'm sure I could find a few verses from our Bible that, when taken out of context or bent and twisted, could be made to say some not so pleasant things as well.


But it isn't taken out of context to lie, cheat, and steal and kill in islam...that is what it teaches. Right now... this very minute...according to islam, any muslim has the right to MURDER me because I left islam... That is not taken out of context, that is what islam teaches.

As to the funneling of money to 'armed elements'... actually that is quite true BUT often that is due to the fact that most charity organizations in Islamic countries are controlled by these 'armed elements'. There is not a single Palestinian charity that is not controlled one way or another by Hamas or Fatah.

Often when american muslims donate to one of these causes there intent is to help... not always to fund the terrorists but in the end...they are still funding the terrorist.

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But it isn't taken out of context to lie, cheat, and steal and kill in islam...that is what it teaches. Right now... this very minute...according to islam, any muslim has the right to MURDER me because I left islam... That is not taken out of context, that is what islam teaches.

As to the funneling of money to 'armed elements'... actually that is quite true BUT often that is due to the fact that most charity organizations in Islamic countries are controlled by these 'armed elements'. There is not a single Palestinian charity that is not controlled one way or another by Hamas or Fatah.

Often when american muslims donate to one of these causes there intent is to help... not always to fund the terrorists but in the end...they are still funding the terrorist.


Thanks, koti!
~~
As to the funding....the "owner" of the property was a waiter in 2002....Man, he must've gotten good tips to raise over 4 mil to buy that property...

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If they put that mosque up near ground zero it will be one of the greatest symbolic victories for Islam over the West. I don't care about their "rights". I get so sick of hearing about peoples "rights". These people could care less about the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and don't want the mosque built there.

Listen, the goal of Islam is to spread Sharia Law over the glOBe. They are anti-democracy, anti-republic, anti-Christian, anti-freedom. There is a war between these two ideals on this planet right now. If they build this mosque it will send a message to radical Islam that in time they will win because the West is week. You folks supporting the rights of Muslims to build this mosque must realize that Islam is much more than a religion, it is a complete system containing relgious, legal, economic, social and military components.

When they allow a church to be built in Mecca than maybe we can think about it.

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If they put that mosque up near ground zero it will be one of the greatest symbolic victories for Islam over the West. I don't care about their "rights". I get so sick of hearing about peoples "rights". These people could care less about the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and don't want the mosque built there.

Listen, the goal of Islam is to spread Sharia Law over the glOBe. They are anti-democracy, anti-republic, anti-Christian, anti-freedom. There is a war between these two ideals on this planet right now. If they build this mosque it will send a message to radical Islam that in time they will win because the West is week. You folks supporting the rights of Muslims to build this mosque must realize that Islam is much more than a religion, it is a complete system containing relgious, legal, economic, social and military components.

When they allow a church to be built in Mecca than maybe we can think about it.

:thumb:

There's prOBlems in TN now, over the same thing...

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If they put that mosque up near ground zero it will be one of the greatest symbolic victories for Islam over the West. I don't care about their "rights". I get so sick of hearing about peoples "rights". These people could care less about the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and don't want the mosque built there.

Listen, the goal of Islam is to spread Sharia Law over the glOBe. They are anti-democracy, anti-republic, anti-Christian, anti-freedom. There is a war between these two ideals on this planet right now. If they build this mosque it will send a message to radical Islam that in time they will win because the West is week. You folks supporting the rights of Muslims to build this mosque must realize that Islam is much more than a religion, it is a complete system containing relgious, legal, economic, social and military components.

When they allow a church to be built in Mecca than maybe we can think about it.


And this is why we must have a very selective few who control this great country of ours. People, for the most part, tend to let their emotions get the best of them which in turn leads to an abandonment of reason and rationality. In our country, you don't have a right not to have your feelings hurt. I completely sympathize with everyone that lost a loved one on 9/11, however, their emotional sensitivity should not dictate public policy and cannot be allowed to circuMVent the rule of law. The mosque is not being built at ground zero. It is two blocks away, on land owned by those who wish to construct the mostque. There is no ordinance or prohibition against such a facility as proposed. It is every bit their right to build their mosque as much as it is yours and my right to build a place of worship (Christian or otherwise) on our own land. It makes no difference whether or not it hurts our neighbors feelings.

Mecca is not in America. They are a kingdom, not a democracy or a republic. The people of Saudi Arabia have the right to rule themselves as they wish and if they don't want Christian churches in Mecca, so be it. Regardless, their laws and way of life have no bearing on how we choose to govern ourselves - which is to allow each and every person the right to freely practice his or her religion. If you want to live in a country where the Christian Church is the ruling authority, I would suggest that the last place you look is in these United States.

All of these folks screaming against this mosque and the one in Tennessee better be careful what they ask for. If our government has the authority to prevent the construction of religious facilities based solely on the emotional ramifications they may have, it may just be their own Churches being blocked in the future.

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And this is why we must have a very selective few who control this great country of ours. People, for the most part, tend to let their emotions get the best of them which in turn leads to an abandonment of reason and rationality. In our country, you don't have a right not to have your feelings hurt. I completely sympathize with everyone that lost a loved one on 9/11, however, their emotional sensitivity should not dictate public policy and cannot be allowed to circuMVent the rule of law. The mosque is not being built at ground zero. It is two blocks away, on land owned by those who wish to construct the mostque. There is no ordinance or prohibition against such a facility as proposed. It is every bit their right to build their mosque as much as it is yours and my right to build a place of worship (Christian or otherwise) on our own land. It makes no difference whether or not it hurts our neighbors feelings.

Mecca is not in America. They are a kingdom, not a democracy or a republic. The people of Saudi Arabia have the right to rule themselves as they wish and if they don't want Christian churches in Mecca, so be it. Regardless, their laws and way of life have no bearing on how we choose to govern ourselves - which is to allow each and every person the right to freely practice his or her religion. If you want to live in a country where the Christian Church is the ruling authority, I would suggest that the last place you look is in these United States.

All of these folks screaming against this mosque and the one in Tennessee better be careful what they ask for. If our government has the authority to prevent the construction of religious facilities based solely on the emotional ramifications they may have, it may just be their own Churches being blocked in the future.


Exactly. The Middle East isn't the United States. That's what sets our country apart is respect for the rights and freedoms of others. This is not a theocracy. As for the people in Tennessee, they are claiming to be Christians, but I am very surprised that the Christians on here haven't denounced their actions. Vandalism is against the law and their actions hardly show Christian love. Again, if Muslims are denied religious freedom, what makes you think that you won't be next?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

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I haven't read what's happening in TN, other than that it involves a mosque. I don't approve of vandalism done by anyone for any reason. But I'm not going to comment until I read it (I only mentioned it earlier because of headlines I read).

Nope, the Middle East isn't the United States. And one of the prOBlems that most Americans don't realize is that muslim jihadists have a plan - and that plan is to use our freedoms and rights to destroy us. And it is happening all over this country. That community center is simply a shrine to jihad victory, whether pt or CPR want to admit it or not. And there is strangeness attached to the funding. During a time of war - which is NOW - the government has the right AND the responsibility to make sure that terrorist cells are not forming in relation to this...and researching the funding BEFORE it's built is something they can do.

It's all well and good to cite the first amendment and claim that they have this right just like all Americans. But we are at war. And that is something that changes things, whether young folk like it or not. It's a simple fact, but one that our current Marxist administration is ignoring.

When Sharia law trumps American law, let's all remember that the first amendment guarantees the right to allow questionable buildings built based on supposed religious reasons, regardless of the possibility of it being funded by terrorists.

Imagine this attitude during the 2 world wars. :smilie_loco:4

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Where are we getting this idea that there is some sinister funding behind the mosque in NY? Do we have these same suspicions for every mosque built in America? What about the muslims who build/buy homes here?

I guess it is possible that al queda is funding the mosque. It's also possible that Tiger Woods is funding it, or maybe the estate of Ronald Reagan. For all I know onlinebaptist may be funding it. After all, it's possible.

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Where are we getting this idea that there is some sinister funding behind the mosque in NY? Do we have these same suspicions for every mosque built in America? What about the muslims who build/buy homes here?

I guess it is possible that al queda is funding the mosque. It's also possible that Tiger Woods is funding it, or maybe the estate of Ronald Reagan. For all I know onlinebaptist may be funding it. After all, it's possible.


I believe it was LuAnne who pointed out they are getting foreign funds. It's already proven that Muslim nations send money to Muslim endeavors in America for the purpose of promoting the Islamic takeover of America. Even our "friend" Saudi Arabia funds "extremist Islamic teaching", which is really just Islamic teaching as it is.

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I haven't read what's happening in TN, other than that it involves a mosque. I don't approve of vandalism done by anyone for any reason. But I'm not going to comment until I read it (I only mentioned it earlier because of headlines I read).

Nope, the Middle East isn't the United States. And one of the prOBlems that most Americans don't realize is that muslim jihadists have a plan - and that plan is to use our freedoms and rights to destroy us. And it is happening all over this country. That community center is simply a shrine to jihad victory, whether pt or CPR want to admit it or not. And there is strangeness attached to the funding. During a time of war - which is NOW - the government has the right AND the responsibility to make sure that terrorist cells are not forming in relation to this...and researching the funding BEFORE it's built is something they can do.

It's all well and good to cite the first amendment and claim that they have this right just like all Americans. But we are at war. And that is something that changes things, whether young folk like it or not. It's a simple fact, but one that our current Marxist administration is ignoring.

When Sharia law trumps American law, let's all remember that the first amendment guarantees the right to allow questionable buildings built based on supposed religious reasons, regardless of the possibility of it being funded by terrorists.

Imagine this attitude during the 2 world wars. :smilie_loco:4


Well, that's the thing that I've been trying to say and ptwild has also been saying. This is very different from the 2 world wars or any other war we've fought for that matter. You can't treat it the same way. Naming our enemies takes some discernment and some intellectual work. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... just isn't going to work here.

Also, this isn't a monument to their victory. If it is they're doing a very poor jOB. I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but I live there and I can tell you that 2 blocks can be a long way and there are lots of buildings and establishments between the mosque/community center and ground zero. For goodness sakes there are churches that are closer to ground zero than this building is. In lower Manhattan everything is very close together. Muslims are not building a shrine to a "victory." They are building a community center for people of Islamic faith who live and work in the area.

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Well, that's the thing that I've been trying to say and ptwild has also been saying. This is very different from the 2 world wars or any other war we've fought for that matter. You can't treat it the same way. Naming our enemies takes some discernment and some intellectual work. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... just isn't going to work here.

Also, this isn't a monument to their victory. If it is they're doing a very poor jOB. I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but I live there and I can tell you that 2 blocks can be a long way and there are lots of buildings and establishments between the mosque/community center and ground zero. For goodness sakes there are churches that are closer to ground zero than this building is. In lower Manhattan everything is very close together. Muslims are not building a shrine to a "victory." They are building a community center for people of Islamic faith who live and work in the area.


Every Mosque built is a sign of Muslim conquest. Their beliefs dictate that the building of such claims the land for Islam. Mosques and "Islamic centers" around the glOBe are hotbeds of planning and perpetuation of the Islamification of the world.

No one is forced to be Muslim any more than they were forced to be Nazi.

Ask the Christians in India, Africa and elsewhere what Islam teaches, what they practice and how the "peaceful Muslims" conduct themselves in regards to all this.

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Every Mosque built is a sign of Muslim conquest. Their beliefs dictate that the building of such claims the land for Islam. Mosques and "Islamic centers" around the glOBe are hotbeds of planning and perpetuation of the Islamification of the world.

No one is forced to be Muslim any more than they were forced to be Nazi.

Ask the Christians in India, Africa and elsewhere what Islam teaches, what they practice and how the "peaceful Muslims" conduct themselves in regards to all this.


What are they supposed to have conquered? What did the Muslims in Tennessee conquer? Where are the spoils of their war? I live a few blocks from a mosque and I can tell you first hand that my particular city is not the cite of a "Muslim conquest."

Though I have never lived there, I have spent a fair amount of time in Cairo and Dubai. Both cities have a plethora of Christian churches and the Christians and Muslims get a long just fine. They are friends and business associates. They eat at the same restaurants and take their kids to play in the same parks.

When I think about it, the things you fault Muslims for ("Islamifying the world" and building mosques) are the same things I want as a Christian. I would like to see the "Christianization of the world" (that's why we send missionaries, right?) and I see the building of church in a place which did not have one to be a form of conquest in that Christ has at least conquered the hearts and minds of the Christians there or else there wouldn't be a new church. May be I'm a radical extremists terrorist and didn't even know it. I'm prOBably the one funding the mosque in NY.

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What are they supposed to have conquered? What did the Muslims in Tennessee conquer? Where are the spoils of their war? I live a few blocks from a mosque and I can tell you first hand that my particular city is not the cite of a "Muslim conquest."

Though I have never lived there, I have spent a fair amount of time in Cairo and Dubai. Both cities have a plethora of Christian churches and the Christians and Muslims get a long just fine. They are friends and business associates. They eat at the same restaurants and take their kids to play in the same parks.

When I think about it, the things you fault Muslims for ("Islamifying the world" and building mosques) are the same things I want as a Christian. I would like to see the "Christianization of the world" (that's why we send missionaries, right?) and I see the building of church in a place which did not have one to be a form of conquest in that Christ has at least conquered the hearts and minds of the Christians there or else there wouldn't be a new church. May be I'm a radical extremists terrorist and didn't even know it. I'm prOBably the one funding the mosque in NY.


Believe what you will, but when the time comes about I certainly hope you are watching you and your families backs.

Those Christians and Muslims know exactly where their loyalties lie regardless of who they eat with. When the moment of truth comes about the Muslims will have no non-Muslim friends.

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Believe what you will, but when the time comes about I certainly hope you are watching you and your families backs.

Those Christians and Muslims know exactly where their loyalties lie regardless of who they eat with. When the moment of truth comes about the Muslims will have no non-Muslim friends.


What is this "time" and "moment of truth"? Quite honestly, I trust my friends and my family. A few of those people include Muslims. I would trust the Muslims that fall into that category long before I would trust most militant "Christians" out there. I can't imagine that you have any credible evidence that there will be some sort of clandestine battle cry and all Muslims around the world, even those that seem to be normal citizens, will suddenly turn against everyone they know who isn't a Muslim and take everything by force. That sounds like the kind of lies their militant extremists tell about Christians.

Furthermore, we see in communities where people live, work and worship side by side that understanding is built. Not only is this common sense, but we can OBserve it happening in cities and towns across the country. People fear what they do not know. When people of different faiths and backgrounds live side by side, they work together, their children go to school together and they begin to interact within their community. That's how they learn that their stereotypes were incorrect and they become neighbors and maybe even friends. This isn't some utopian liberal ideal, this is what happens when people live together in communities. Building a mosque only furthers that goal.

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Well, that's the thing that I've been trying to say and ptwild has also been saying. This is very different from the 2 world wars or any other war we've fought for that matter. You can't treat it the same way. Naming our enemies takes some discernment and some intellectual work. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... just isn't going to work here.

Also, this isn't a monument to their victory. If it is they're doing a very poor jOB. I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but I live there and I can tell you that 2 blocks can be a long way and there are lots of buildings and establishments between the mosque/community center and ground zero. For goodness sakes there are churches that are closer to ground zero than this building is. In lower Manhattan everything is very close together. Muslims are not building a shrine to a "victory." They are building a community center for people of Islamic faith who live and work in the area.


Before trying to defend muslims maybe you should learn what islam teaches... I mean really teaches..not this pc stuff that some muslims put out. It is a victory to them.

When I was living in chicago (well technically a suburb, bridgeview), I belonged to a small mosque that was looking to expand. I was lucky enough to get on the committee that was to choose the possible locations (not that i had any say, i was just there for the pc crowd). The first meeting it was discussed the 1 thing that was a must was that it had to be an old church that we bought. Why you ask.. because it would be thought of as a victory over the christians.. it would be looked at as the muslims shut down yet another place for the 'dirty christians' to practice their 'idolatry'.

In islam it is all about the victory... Theirs..not ours. Even the pc muslims... it is all about their victory..not ours.. .that is what needs to be kept in mind.

Do you think that if the roles were reversed... they would be debating amongst themselves as to whether or not to let us build a church...NO they would not be. The answer would be a flat out no without a debate.

I keep seeing the same question asked about if we stop muslims from practicing how long will it be before we as christians can't... wait... kids get kicked out of school now for praying or bringing a bible to school. In many schools kids can no longer say 'one nation under God' when saying the pledge... In many places of work you can't even pull your bible out and read it. In Dearborn, MI a christian cannot hand a christian tract to a muslim but yet a muslim can give you one on islam... Our right to practice has been slowly slipping away for years.

And as christians how can anyone sit and defend a group that is so anti christian. Witness to them and bring them to Christ.

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Before trying to defend muslims maybe you should learn what islam teaches... I mean really teaches..not this pc stuff that some muslims put out. It is a victory to them.

When I was living in chicago (well technically a suburb, bridgeview), I belonged to a small mosque that was looking to expand. I was lucky enough to get on the committee that was to choose the possible locations (not that i had any say, i was just there for the pc crowd). The first meeting it was discussed the 1 thing that was a must was that it had to be an old church that we bought. Why you ask.. because it would be thought of as a victory over the christians.. it would be looked at as the muslims shut down yet another place for the 'dirty christians' to practice their 'idolatry'.

In islam it is all about the victory... Theirs..not ours. Even the pc muslims... it is all about their victory..not ours.. .that is what needs to be kept in mind.

Do you think that if the roles were reversed... they would be debating amongst themselves as to whether or not to let us build a church...NO they would not be. The answer would be a flat out no without a debate.

I keep seeing the same question asked about if we stop muslims from practicing how long will it be before we as christians can't... wait... kids get kicked out of school now for praying or bringing a bible to school. In many schools kids can no longer say 'one nation under God' when saying the pledge... In many places of work you can't even pull your bible out and read it. In Dearborn, MI a christian cannot hand a christian tract to a muslim but yet a muslim can give you one on islam... Our right to practice has been slowly slipping away for years.

And as christians how can anyone sit and defend a group that is so anti christian. Witness to them and bring them to Christ.


:amen:

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Before trying to defend muslims maybe you should learn what islam teaches... I mean really teaches..not this pc stuff that some muslims put out. It is a victory to them.

When I was living in chicago (well technically a suburb, bridgeview), I belonged to a small mosque that was looking to expand. I was lucky enough to get on the committee that was to choose the possible locations (not that i had any say, i was just there for the pc crowd). The first meeting it was discussed the 1 thing that was a must was that it had to be an old church that we bought. Why you ask.. because it would be thought of as a victory over the christians.. it would be looked at as the muslims shut down yet another place for the 'dirty christians' to practice their 'idolatry'.

In islam it is all about the victory... Theirs..not ours. Even the pc muslims... it is all about their victory..not ours.. .that is what needs to be kept in mind.

Do you think that if the roles were reversed... they would be debating amongst themselves as to whether or not to let us build a church...NO they would not be. The answer would be a flat out no without a debate.

I keep seeing the same question asked about if we stop muslims from practicing how long will it be before we as christians can't... wait... kids get kicked out of school now for praying or bringing a bible to school. In many schools kids can no longer say 'one nation under God' when saying the pledge... In many places of work you can't even pull your bible out and read it. In Dearborn, MI a christian cannot hand a christian tract to a muslim but yet a muslim can give you one on islam... Our right to practice has been slowly slipping away for years.

And as christians how can anyone sit and defend a group that is so anti christian. Witness to them and bring them to Christ.


For some reason I find many of your assertions hard to believe. Maybe it's because you only have 25 post and you just so happened to magically appear here with your "conversion" story at the same time that this issue became a topic. Additionally, it is absolutely not true that a Christian cannot hand out a "tract" in Dearborn, MI, or anywhere else for that matter, yet a Muslim can. That would be a fundamental violation of civil liberties that would be corrected by any Court of competent jurisdiction. And just so we are clear, the public school system in this nation does not exists for the children of Christians to evangelize everyone else. It upsets me as it is to have my tax dollars go to such an ineffective system, it would upset me even more if the children weren't there actually learning, but instead there spreading their religious beliefs. It's simply not what the schools are set up for. Furthermore, any child can pray at any time he or she wishes in school. I pray several times a day and no one knows it. I just sit in my office, bow my head and pray. You don't have to pull out a bible and stand on top of a desk to pray, you don't even have to do it out loud. God hears you even when you don't have a megaphone in your hand. If you would just read a few of the school prayer cases, you would see that in almost every circumstance, the child's "prayer" involves some outlandish interruption of the class and it is OBvious that the child's interest is not in being able to pray, but in spreading his or her message.

This whole business about every Muslim just waiting for the "right time" to turn on us and kill us is nothing more than fear mongering propaganda. It is becoming more and more OBvious that a few folks around here's prOBlem with the mosque in NY isn't its location, it's the fact that it is being built period. You don't like religions that are different from your own (which is your right) and you want to use government to limit their ability to exists (not your right). How far away from ground zero would be an appropriate location for this mosque? Mayber 2 1/2 blocks? 10 blocks? Or 3,000 miles away in the Middle East?

While making these fanciful arguments about concerns for our safety and the like, let's not forget that you are far more likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack carried out by an extremist Christian in this country than you are from one carried out by an extremist Muslim.

One last point, and just so we are on the same page: we are not debating about whether or not to let them build their mosque. That's not up to me and you or anyone else. Our Constitution, the same document that allows you to build your church, has already decided that these people can build their mosque. You and I can debate about whether it is insensitive or about whether or not the existing structure should have been given landmark status, but our beliefs and opinions have absolutely no bearing on whether or not the mosque will be built. It will be built, exactly where they want it, and there isn't a thing you and I or anyone else can do about it. And that is something you should be thankful for.

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For some reason I find many of your assertions hard to believe. Maybe it's because you only have 25 post and you just so happened to magically appear here with your "conversion" story at the same time that this issue became a topic. Additionally, it is absolutely not true that a Christian cannot hand out a "tract" in Dearborn, MI, or anywhere else for that matter, yet a Muslim can. That would be a fundamental violation of civil liberties that would be corrected by any Court of competent jurisdiction. And just so we are clear, the public school system in this nation does not exists for the children of Christians to evangelize everyone else. It upsets me as it is to have my tax dollars go to such an ineffective system, it would upset me even more if the children weren't there actually learning, but instead there spreading their religious beliefs. It's simply not what the schools are set up for. Furthermore, any child can pray at any time he or she wishes in school. I pray several times a day and no one knows it. I just sit in my office, bow my head and pray. You don't have to pull out a bible and stand on top of a desk to pray, you don't even have to do it out loud. God hears you even when you don't have a megaphone in your hand. If you would just read a few of the school prayer cases, you would see that in almost every circumstance, the child's "prayer" involves some outlandish interruption of the class and it is OBvious that the child's interest is not in being able to pray, but in spreading his or her message.

This whole business about every Muslim just waiting for the "right time" to turn on us and kill us is nothing more than fear mongering propaganda. It is becoming more and more OBvious that a few folks around here's prOBlem with the mosque in NY isn't its location, it's the fact that it is being built period. You don't like religions that are different from your own (which is your right) and you want to use government to limit their ability to exists (not your right). How far away from ground zero would be an appropriate location for this mosque? Mayber 2 1/2 blocks? 10 blocks? Or 3,000 miles away in the Middle East?

While making these fanciful arguments about concerns for our safety and the like, let's not forget that you are far more likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack carried out by an extremist Christian in this country than you are from one carried out by an extremist Muslim.

One last point, and just so we are on the same page: we are not debating about whether or not to let them build their mosque. That's not up to me and you or anyone else. Our Constitution, the same document that allows you to build your church, has already decided that these people can build their mosque. You and I can debate about whether it is insensitive or about whether or not the existing structure should have been given landmark status, but our beliefs and opinions have absolutely no bearing on whether or not the mosque will be built. It will be built, exactly where they want it, and there isn't a thing you and I or anyone else can do about it. And that is something you should be thankful for.


Wow. Do you live in a cave? Do you believe the Bible?

I have no idea who koti is or why God has them here but from personal experience I know what they are posting is true. Read some history, read some contemporary news that's outside the drivel they give in the half-hour mainstream reports. Christians have been hauled away for passing out tracts in Dearborn and Christians have been silenced in many schools while special accomodations have been made to provide Muslims with a prayer room and Muslims are given special treatment with regard to certain of their "holy days".

It should be noted the first idea for public school was to educate the next generation to be good Christians. It wasn't until much later that public schools were turned into anti-Christian propaganda arms of the central government.

Islam isn't just a "different religion", Islam is a false religion leading millions to hell and actively working to prevent millions from hearing the Gospel. Why would any biblical Christian like that or support such in any way?

How many people in America have been killed by Muslims in the past year or two or few years and how many have been killed by biblical Christians? Off the top of my head I can think of several who were killed by Muslims but none that were killed by biblical Christians.

Considering I serve Almighty God there is a great deal myself and other biblical Christians can do about the building of Mosques and the Islamification of America.

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Wow. Do you live in a cave? Do you believe the Bible?

I have no idea who koti is or why God has them here but from personal experience I know what they are posting is true. Read some history, read some contemporary news that's outside the drivel they give in the half-hour mainstream reports. Christians have been hauled away for passing out tracts in Dearborn and Christians have been silenced in many schools while special accomodations have been made to provide Muslims with a prayer room and Muslims are given special treatment with regard to certain of their "holy days".

It should be noted the first idea for public school was to educate the next generation to be good Christians. It wasn't until much later that public schools were turned into anti-Christian propaganda arms of the central government.

Islam isn't just a "different religion", Islam is a false religion leading millions to hell and actively working to prevent millions from hearing the Gospel. Why would any biblical Christian like that or support such in any way?

How many people in America have been killed by Muslims in the past year or two or few years and how many have been killed by biblical Christians? Off the top of my head I can think of several who were killed by Muslims but none that were killed by biblical Christians.

Considering I serve Almighty God there is a great deal myself and other biblical Christians can do about the building of Mosques and the Islamification of America.


Of course I believe the Bible. I believe that our government is a gift from God and that the proper use thereof is a blessing. No Christian has been "hauled away" for passing out tracts in Dearborn, MI or anywhere else. That is just simply not true. And I want Christians to be silenced in the public schools. As I said, that's not what my tax dollars should be spent on. It's not the public school's jOB to "Christinize" our children. It exists for the sole purpose of providing a somewhat sufficient education that enables the majority of people to participate in our society. No one can prevent you and I or anyone from praying. I don't know the verse off the top of my head, but there is even an Biblical mandate that we should pray in private. These children that make a spectacle out of their prayers are not praying, but are doing just that - making spectacle so as to cause controversy and distract from the purpose of the schools.

And I'm not supporting Islam. I'm supporting freedom and I do so because I value my own freedom. I don't want, nor need, you or anyone else telling me how, when or where I can practice my faith. The same holds true for Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus and, yes, all other Christians. I may not agree with what they do, but I support their freedom to do it.

Apart from 9/11, I can't think of any Americans that have been killed by Muslim extremists in this country in the past ten years. The most recent act of religious terrorism in this country (that I can recall) was the murder of the abortionist in Kansas last year - which was carried out by a Christian extremist. It is no more truthful to say that every Muslim is a terrorist than it is to say that every Christian is a terrorist. There is almost always a certain element of any group, religious or otherwise, that exists on the fringes and holds to more extreme beliefs than the core of the group.

If you believe every Muslim is a terrorist, and therefore a criminal and possible enemy combatant, then why aren't you lOBbying your local police to make arrest? If I honestly believed that the Mosque (or any other facility for that matter) down the street was the headquarters of a group of murderous criminals whose attack upon me and my family was imminent, then I'm sure the people of my community would walk down the street and end it one way or another. All of which gets back to the heart of the matter. It is not a fear of being attacked by Muslims that has brought about all of this discord. It is a internal disdain for, and fear of, a group of people who are different than you and your basic primal instinct to eliminate them.

And there is absolutely nothing you can do, within the bounds of the law, to prevent these people, or anyone else, from worshiping who/what ever they want, when and where ever they want. They have the same first ammendment protections as you do.

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Of course I believe the Bible. I believe that our government is a gift from God and that the proper use thereof is a blessing. No Christian has been "hauled away" for passing out tracts in Dearborn, MI or anywhere else. That is just simply not true. And I want Christians to be silenced in the public schools. As I said, that's not what my tax dollars should be spent on. It's not the public school's jOB to "Christinize" our children. It exists for the sole purpose of providing a somewhat sufficient education that enables the majority of people to participate in our society. No one can prevent you and I or anyone from praying. I don't know the verse off the top of my head, but there is even an Biblical mandate that we should pray in private. These children that make a spectacle out of their prayers are not praying, but are doing just that - making spectacle so as to cause controversy and distract from the purpose of the schools.

And I'm not supporting Islam. I'm supporting freedom and I do so because I value my own freedom. I don't want, nor need, you or anyone else telling me how, when or where I can practice my faith. The same holds true for Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus and, yes, all other Christians. I may not agree with what they do, but I support their freedom to do it.

Apart from 9/11, I can't think of any Americans that have been killed by Muslim extremists in this country in the past ten years. The most recent act of religious terrorism in this country (that I can recall) was the murder of the abortionist in Kansas last year - which was carried out by a Christian extremist. It is no more truthful to say that every Muslim is a terrorist than it is to say that every Christian is a terrorist. There is almost always a certain element of any group, religious or otherwise, that exists on the fringes and holds to more extreme beliefs than the core of the group.

If you believe every Muslim is a terrorist, and therefore a criminal and possible enemy combatant, then why aren't you lOBbying your local police to make arrest? If I honestly believed that the Mosque (or any other facility for that matter) down the street was the headquarters of a group of murderous criminals whose attack upon me and my family was imminent, then I'm sure the people of my community would walk down the street and end it one way or another. All of which gets back to the heart of the matter. It is not a fear of being attacked by Muslims that has brought about all of this discord. It is a internal disdain for, and fear of, a group of people who are different than you and your basic primal instinct to eliminate them.

And there is absolutely nothing you can do, within the bounds of the law, to prevent these people, or anyone else, from worshiping who/what ever they want, when and where ever they want. They have the same first ammendment protections as you do.


Like every other government on the planet, the American government is corrupt and ungodly. Our citizenship is in heaven and this should take precedence over anything "American".

If you can do good searches look up the incidences in Dearborn with regards to Christians and the police. While doing so you might encounter some other similar incidences which have occured in various parts of the country.

Are you the one who designed the public school system so that you know what it is and isn't for? The first public schools were to educate children so they could read the Bible and become good Christians and therefore good citizens. It wasn't until the latter half of the 1880s that public schools began being used to promote propaganda. In the 1900s the public schools increasing came under governmental, rather than local, control. Until the mid-1900s part of many public schools jOB was to still to teach the Bible. It wasn't until unconstitutional edicts were handed down by the courts that such was changed. Read the history of public schools and the closer you get to contemporary times the more you see the purpose for the current public schools is to dechristianize students and to push PC propaganda, any actual education is a side issue.

Were the schools better when they were run by Christians who taught from the Bible and encouraged Christian growth or today when they promote ungodliness?

Where were you when the Muslim officer shot those soldiers in Texas? Or how about the Muslims who have shot people in front of recruiting center? We could even consider how many have been caught in the preparation stages to kill Americans.

Islam is a false religion leading people to hell and preventing people from hearing the Gospel. Why would any Christian support them in any way?

I've seen God answer prayers and I know the prayers of His people are heard and answered and He is more than capable of preventing a Mosque from being built in any parituclar place.

Sorry for the rush but I have family to tend to.

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Like every other government on the planet, the American government is corrupt and ungodly. Our citizenship is in heaven and this should take precedence over anything "American".

If you can do good searches look up the incidences in Dearborn with regards to Christians and the police. While doing so you might encounter some other similar incidences which have occured in various parts of the country.

Are you the one who designed the public school system so that you know what it is and isn't for? The first public schools were to educate children so they could read the Bible and become good Christians and therefore good citizens. It wasn't until the latter half of the 1880s that public schools began being used to promote propaganda. In the 1900s the public schools increasing came under governmental, rather than local, control. Until the mid-1900s part of many public schools jOB was to still to teach the Bible. It wasn't until unconstitutional edicts were handed down by the courts that such was changed. Read the history of public schools and the closer you get to contemporary times the more you see the purpose for the current public schools is to dechristianize students and to push PC propaganda, any actual education is a side issue.

Were the schools better when they were run by Christians who taught from the Bible and encouraged Christian growth or today when they promote ungodliness?

Where were you when the Muslim officer shot those soldiers in Texas? Or how about the Muslims who have shot people in front of recruiting center? We could even consider how many have been caught in the preparation stages to kill Americans.

Islam is a false religion leading people to hell and preventing people from hearing the Gospel. Why would any Christian support them in any way?

I've seen God answer prayers and I know the prayers of His people are heard and answered and He is more than capable of preventing a Mosque from being built in any parituclar place.

Sorry for the rush but I have family to tend to.


Forgive me, in my own rush I failed to recall the shootings at Fort Hood. However, I do believe that the shooter in that instance had long suffered from mental illness and I don't know if it was ever established that his religious beliefs motivated him in anyway, or to what degree. From what I recall, he had mental issues and just happened to be Muslim and that, combined with the war on terror, caused him to "lose it," so to speak. I don't believe there is any evidence that his local Muslim community was encouraging him to murder his fellow soldiers.

And even if what you say about the beginnings of our public schools is true, it has no bearing on how things are today in the real world. The moment our federal tax dollars started supporting the public schools is the moment that our federal constitutional protections kicked in. If the schools used to be a totally local entity, receiving their financial support and man power from the local community, then I would say that the were not in fact "public" schools, but rather, private schools that offered free education to local students. I also don't understand the argument that because an entity began a certain way that that way is automatically correct. Almost any "thing" can start with certain constitutional violations and then later be corrected by our courts without eliminating the "thing" altogether.

And again, just because I support a persons (or a group of persons) right to religious freedom does not mean I support their ideas. I've seen it posted here many times that Catholicism (and even some would say, Anglicanism) is a "false religion" that is sending people to hell, yet I don't see people clamoring together to prevent the construction of new Catholic churches. I think your position might at least appear valid if it had any sort of pattern of consistency. It's just hard for me to get behind or agree with something so whimsical and capricious that finds all of its basis in emotionalism, rather than reason.

And no one said God couldn't prevent the building of the Mosque. But you (and those that agree with you) are not God and I believe the equation of the two might be, in part, a source of the prOBlem.

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Just to let you know, pt - koti has been on the ladies forum longer than she's been over here. And to question her conversion just because she hasn't posted as many posts as others equates you with God, as you accused others in your previous post. She was muslim and is now Christian, and instead of questioning her you should be rejoicing that she is saved out of that false politico-religious system.

As to passing out tracts in Dearborn: how do you know? You live in the south, not in MI, let alone Dearborn. And you are dead wrong. There were Christians arrested this year in Dearborn.
You can read it here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2538820/posts
You can watch the vids here: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026594.php

Dearborn is not the only place where Christians get into trouble for trying to witness. You need to get your head out of the sand, brother!

As to the shootings at Fort Hood, that guy was not a mental case. He actually was a counselor, himself. The media tried to portray him as suffering from some kind of symapthetic PTSD, but it was shown that he actually wasn't (and, voila, no more was heard...). But that he was a follower of an imam who is virulently anti-American - and, yes, it was established that his religious/political (in Islam they are one and the same)beliefs influenced him. Sorry to burst your bubble, but he was a terrorist, "serving" in the US Army. That kinda scares me for my son.

And let's not forget about the muslims who tried to get onto Fort Dix with intention (and ability) of doing some major harm...Let's not forget about the muslims who shot the USS Cole. Let's not forget about the FIRST attempt at the WTC - by muslims. The list could go on.

Islam is a politico-religious system, and as such doesn't rate protection under the first amendment. It is diametrically opposed to the Constitution and as such should be put out of our country. And, please, cut out the feeble protestations that our thoughts are based on emotions. You're starting to sound kinda emotional about it. :icon_mrgreen:

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Well, that's the thing that I've been trying to say and ptwild has also been saying. This is very different from the 2 world wars or any other war we've fought for that matter. You can't treat it the same way. Naming our enemies takes some discernment and some intellectual work. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... just isn't going to work here.
You misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean that it was very different - although, to a certain extent, it is different: one big one being that there is a lot of stuff going on here in America to destroy us by muslims and people are putting their heads in the sand about it. What I meant was that during the 2 World Wars, those whom we were fighting were separated in ways - Japanese in internment camps, and no folks of German lineage were allowed to fight in the American military. I'm not advocating internment camps, I'm just pointing out that we were a lot more savvy to possible sabotage and betrayal then than we are now. And it is there - it's happening almost daily, we just don't hear about it all the time because we're supposed to accept that islam is a religion of peace. But any politico-religious system is not about peace, it is about control.
Also, this isn't a monument to their victory. If it is they're doing a very poor jOB. I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but I live there and I can tell you that 2 blocks can be a long way and there are lots of buildings and establishments between the mosque/community center and ground zero. For goodness sakes there are churches that are closer to ground zero than this building is. In lower Manhattan everything is very close together. Muslims are not building a shrine to a "victory." They are building a community center for people of Islamic faith who live and work in the area. See, this is an indication of your lack of understanding. Yes, it is a victory for them. Two blocks is not that far - in any city. Add to that the fact that the building that is on that property was damaged by fallout from the attack, and the business subsequently closed - oh, yes, building their "community center" is going to be a great monument to their victory. For goodness sakes, do a little research into the muslim mind...

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