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JerryNumbers

Ground Zero Mosque Should Not Be Built

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From what I understand, the group that wants to build the facility owns the land it is to be built on. The City of New York, nor anyone else for that matter, has any right to prohibit them from building whatever they want on their land. I would just love to see someone (a city, a person . . .) tell me I can't build a church on my land. If I was intent to do it, and someone told me I couldn't, I would build it twice as big then laugh in their face. So long as they aren't doing anything illegal, it's no one else's business.




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Sorry, Here is America there be such thing as zoning laws, and one may own the land, but that does not mean he can build anything he wants to. Are you saying you would not OBey the laws of the land?


This was on the other thread so I brought it over here per moderator's request to keep things on topic.

Yes, we do have zoning laws. My parents could not suddenly decide to tear down their house and build a McDonalds even though they own their land. Their land is not zoned for commercial development. The proposed Islamic center does not violate zoning laws. There was even an investigation to see if the building warranted being historically preserved. The NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission voted unanimously to withhold its protection from the site. The OBjections to this center are not legal OBjections and have nothing to do with zoning.

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You cannot have freedom for one group and no freedom for another. The Muslims have as much right to build there,they are not trying to oppress anyone, they are trying to build understanding here.

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You cannot have freedom for one group and no freedom for another. The Muslims have as much right to build there,they are not trying to oppress anyone, they are trying to build understanding here.



Selective freedom is always dangerous. If all are not free then none are really free.

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

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You cannot have freedom for one group and no freedom for another. The Muslims have as much right to build there,they are not trying to oppress anyone, they are trying to build understanding here.


Build understanding? No... muslims don't want you to understand them..they want you to become one or die. That simple.

If they wanted to build understanding they would be screaming from the rooftops all over the world telling the terrorists to STOP killing in the name of their god. If they wanted to build understanding they would not be wanting this mosque, center whatever you want to call it, to be so close to the spot where other MUSLIMS flew planes into buildings killing so many innocent people...

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Build understanding? No... muslims don't want you to understand them..they want you to become one or die. That simple.

If they wanted to build understanding they would be screaming from the rooftops all over the world telling the terrorists to STOP killing in the name of their god. If they wanted to build understanding they would not be wanting this mosque, center whatever you want to call it, to be so close to the spot where other MUSLIMS flew planes into buildings killing so many innocent people...


Have you missed the comments made, the fatwas issued AGAINST this kind of action by Muslims? And what of the Muslims who were in the buildings when the planes crashed into them?

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I understand the principles involved with this issue and do see merit that all need to be treated the same under the laws of our land.

If this endeavor is truly an attempt to put in a center for the community for peaceful means, then that is fine and can be done in a way that is sensitive to others and engenders good will.

The underlying current that is really at play here is trust between groups of people, or should I say lack of trust. The lack of trust goes in both directions and has built up over many years, thus it will take many years to rectify.

I know for myself I work with many people of different backgrounds, cultures and religious persuasions (including Muslims). I get along with all of them and consider them to be people that have good character and intentions. We actually discuss each others view points and differences without any malice or contention.

BUT, when I think of "Muslims" as a group (rather than individual people I work with and know) I must say I have a great deal of distrust towards that group. The group as a whole does not come out and condemn the radical element, which then fosters in my mind the concept that they actually condone the radical element. Also, I find it very difficult to know who to trust when we see time and time again some one from the group pretending to be a friend to others and then once they are "in with them" they set off a bomb vest and take their "friends" with them in the name of Allah. My last OBservation is that Muslims do tend to build Mosques on the sites of former victories and there is great suspicion that this is another attempt at that kind of thing and that it will be used by the radical element to parade their "9/11 victory" through out their area of influence for recruiting purposes and to "shove it in the faces" of the western "evil infidels."

Perhaps these are all unfounded in this particular case, but these are still the concerns that a large portion of Americans have. Until we each take baby steps toward demonstrating we can trust each other (not in a best friend sense, but at least in a mutual respect way) then this will continue for some time, no doubt.

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I don't think zoning is an issue here. As has been said earlier, the argument is not legal, but rather emotional. Some don't want the facility constructed simply because they are sensitive to the idea and find it offensive (apparently based on the belief that all Muslims are terrorists). Some people might say that building the facility woudn't be politically correct, considering its proximity to the 9/11 attacks and some people's views of the Muslim community in this country. I'm sure a similar response would follow if Buddhist wanted to construct a temple close to Pearl Harbor or if Fred Phelps wanted to build a baptist church a few blocks from Arlington National Cemetery.

Rights are rights and, thank goodness, they apply to everyone. If they own the land and the proposed construction is lawfull, then who are we to tell another what he or she can or cannot do with their property.

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But didn't you say I quote, "Rights are rights and, thank goodness, they apply to everyone (emphasis added)." Now apparently you are saying they don't apply to me or anyone else that is against the muslims building a mosque there. So rights do not apply to everyone!

As much as we would like to believe we live in a free nation, we don't.

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But didn't you say I quote, "Rights are rights and, thank goodness, they apply to everyone (emphasis added)." Now apparently you are saying they don't apply to me or anyone else that is against the muslims building a mosque there. So rights do not apply to everyone!

As much as we would like to believe we live in a free nation, we don't.


Of course we are not free to unreasonably interfer with the freedoms of others. You have absolutely no right to tell someone else what he or she or it can or cannot do with their property. Your opinions, wants, desires . . . simply don't matter. You can no more tell them what they can't build on their property than they can tell you what color to paint your house.

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I believe amblivion is referring to her right to free speech. She does have the right to air her opinion that it's wrong to build this so-called community center so near ground zero (and I say so-called rightly: we must remember that the koran allows deception if it means furthering their ends...)

Mayhap you should check out the imam who is behind this - it might open some eyes! War has been declared against the US, jihad. And people who believe that the imams here in America aren't involved in recruiting jihadists don't understand the minds of the terrorists. They don't think like we do. They will USE this so called freedom to build anywhere they want to, in order to continue in their war against us. And those who are fighting against us are supporting this. During a time of war, this is not to be countenanced. But we have a generation of people now who think it's okay. Sad.

Call me a hater if you want, I don't care (not that anyone here has...but there are voices out there calllnig folks who don't like this kind of stuff haters...)! Unless the financials of this building are PROVEN to have NO link to the terrorists we are fighting, it should not be allowed to be built. And, yes, our government has every right to demand an accounting. We are at war, whether anyone agrees with the war or not is a moot point. And we are at war with muslim jihadists - from MANY countries.

That war is reason enough to stop this building.

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I believe amblivion is referring to her right to free speech. She does have the right to air her opinion that it's wrong to build this so-called community center so near ground zero (and I say so-called rightly: we must remember that the koran allows deception if it means furthering their ends...)

Mayhap you should check out the imam who is behind this - it might open some eyes! War has been declared against the US, jihad. And people who believe that the imams here in America aren't involved in recruiting jihadists don't understand the minds of the terrorists. They don't think like we do. They will USE this so called freedom to build anywhere they want to, in order to continue in their war against us. And those who are fighting against us are supporting this. During a time of war, this is not to be countenanced. But we have a generation of people now who think it's okay. Sad.

Call me a hater if you want, I don't care (not that anyone here has...but there are voices out there calllnig folks who don't like this kind of stuff haters...)! Unless the financials of this building are PROVEN to have NO link to the terrorists we are fighting, it should not be allowed to be built. And, yes, our government has every right to demand an accounting. We are at war, whether anyone agrees with the war or not is a moot point. And we are at war with muslim jihadists - from MANY countries.

That war is reason enough to stop this building.


This is just simply not how our legal system works. Folks are not required to prove a negative in the face of unsubstantiated allegations. Thte government has no right to "demand an accounting" unless there is on going litigation and even then the government would bear the burden of proof. Happy, it appears that you believe our "War on Terror" is really a war against the religion of Islam, despite the fact that muslims serve in our military and fight/die along side our forces in the war on terrorism. If this is truely your position, then it doesn't appear that the location of the facility has anything to do with your OBjection. It would seem that you would OBject to the building of any islamic facility by anyone at any U.S. location.

And even the first amendment doesn't allow one person to interfer with another person's property rights.

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This is just simply not how our legal system works. Folks are not required to prove a negative in the face of unsubstantiated allegations. Thte government has no right to "demand an accounting" unless there is on going litigation and even then the government would bear the burden of proof. Happy, it appears that you believe our "War on Terror" is really a war against the religion of Islam, despite the fact that muslims serve in our military and fight/die along side our forces in the war on terrorism. If this is truely your position, then it doesn't appear that the location of the facility has anything to do with your OBjection. It would seem that you would OBject to the building of any islamic facility by anyone at any U.S. location.

And even the first amendment doesn't allow one person to interfer with another person's property rights.

You didn't read my post correctly if you assume that I believe the War on Terror (no quotes!) is against the religion of Islam. I do believe I mentioned Jihad? THAT's who is fighting us - jihadists. (and, pray tell, WHO are jihadists? And, no I am not saying the entire religion...but people need to do some research and see just how much imams here in America work for jihad).

Oh, yes, the government DOES have the right to demand an accounting when there is a possibility of this building being funded by terrorists (read: jihadists and/or their supporters) when we are at war. I realize that you prOBably disagree with the Patriot Act, pt, but regardless of one's thoughts, it does exist - and, under that, it is permissable...as well as the fact that we are at war. Being at war, pt, changes some things - things necessarily need to tighten up. In previous years, our country has. But not now, sadly.

No-one said the first amendment allows one person to interfere with another's anything! BUT - it does PROTECT a person's right to SAY what they think, which is what amblivion (and me, and you...) was doing.

Islam has a long history of building a mosque on a site which they have conquered, or as a sign of victory...again, I suggest people research this imam and his financial supporters...

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You didn't read my post correctly if you assume that I believe the War on Terror (no quotes!) is against the religion of Islam. I do believe I mentioned Jihad? THAT's who is fighting us - jihadists. (and, pray tell, WHO are jihadists? And, no I am not saying the entire religion...but people need to do some research and see just how much imams here in America work for jihad).

Oh, yes, the government DOES have the right to demand an accounting when there is a possibility of this building being funded by terrorists (read: jihadists and/or their supporters) when we are at war. I realize that you prOBably disagree with the Patriot Act, pt, but regardless of one's thoughts, it does exist - and, under that, it is permissable...as well as the fact that we are at war. Being at war, pt, changes some things - things necessarily need to tighten up. In previous years, our country has. But not now, sadly.

No-one said the first amendment allows one person to interfere with another's anything! BUT - it does PROTECT a person's right to SAY what they think, which is what amblivion (and me, and you...) was doing.

Islam has a long history of building a mosque on a site which they have conquered, or as a sign of victory...again, I suggest people research this imam and his financial supporters...


The "possibility" of wrong doing is never enough for our government to compel/injoin private action. Even if there were a prOBability that funds from terrorist organizations were supporting the building of the proposed facility, litigation would first have to instituted or congress would have to exercise its subpoena power before an accounting could be requird. And even in that event, there would still be no way for either side to prove a negative. For example, how can you prove that a Christian extremist didn't put $5 in your church's offering plate last week?

This is no different than the political correctness crowd demanding we take our crucifixes down and replace "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays." It's all based on emotion and sensitivities and has no basis in law or basic property rights. If there is evidence that the facility is being supported with terrorists funds, then let's see some evidence. If there is no evidence, then let's quit throwing around unsubstantiated allegations. We don't have a right not to have our feelings hurt.

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The "possibility" of wrong doing is never enough for our government to compel/injoin private action. Even if there were a prOBability that funds from terrorist organizations were supporting the building of the proposed facility, litigation would first have to instituted or congress would have to exercise its subpoena power before an accounting could be requird. And even in that event, there would still be no way for either side to prove a negative. For example, how can you prove that a Christian extremist didn't put $5 in your church's offering plate last week?

This is no different than the political correctness crowd demanding we take our crucifixes down and replace "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holidays." It's all based on emotion and sensitivities and has no basis in law or basic property rights. If there is evidence that the facility is being supported with terrorists funds, then let's see some evidence. If there is no evidence, then let's quit throwing around unsubstantiated allegations. We don't have a right not to have our feelings hurt.

You're assuming an awful lot when you claim that my statements reflect my feelings being hurt. There are many in NYC whose emotions are strung out because of this - as well as others whose relations were part of the murdered on 9-11.

And you are wrong that the "possibility" is never enough. In a time of war, it is so - for the protection of America. Putting $5 in the offering plate (or even in whatever it is that synagogues and mosqes call their donation holders) is a FAR cry from being built with funding from terrorists.

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Have you missed the comments made, the fatwas issued AGAINST this kind of action by Muslims? And what of the Muslims who were in the buildings when the planes crashed into them?


I am quite familiar with the fatwas... I was still muslim when they were issued... I am also quite familiar with the teachings in the mosques.

Truth is it doesn't matter what fatwa any 'scholar' or imam issues. Muslims follow their local Imam and his teachings and many of the 'local' imams regularly talk down the 'fatwa' issued. They say why you shouldn't follow that scholar or this scholar.

Just because a fatwa is issued doesn't not mean it is accepted.

This issue is not about the muslims who died in the buildings that day. Their names will be listed on any memorial that is built. What does this mosque/community center have to do with honoring them? It isn't about honoring anyone.

I am not a muslim 'hater'... but i do know the mindset... I also know that MANY of the 'friendly' muslims you speak of... refer to christians as dirty, liars, etc... behind christian's backs.

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Opponents Question Ground Zero Mosque's Murky Funding, Mysterious Sponsors

I believe some are expressing their opinion without having the information needed to express an opinion in favor of this. Perhaps this article will help you. As this article says, there be some mystrous sponsors, plus those approving it may have done so wrongly.

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Opponents Question Ground Zero Mosque's Murky Funding, Mysterious Sponsors

I believe some are expressing their opinion without having the information needed to express an opinion in favor of this. Perhaps this article will help you. As this article says, there be some mystrous sponsors, plus those approving it may have done so wrongly.


If you are going to try to "help" us, then perhaps you should post from a source that doesn't have a biased agenda.

Regardless, I think what we are trying to say is that most (perhaps not all, but most) people who are opposed to this center are expressing very emotional arguments not legal ones. Freedom of religion is for every religion and when we deny it or put restrictions on it for any reason we are on very dangerous ground. That's what sets our great country apart.

Jerry, can you imagine if the church you pastor planned to open a community center or new church or soup kitchen or something of the like (insert ministry here) and had to deal with this kind of prOBing opposition? You would be outraged and rightfully so! You and your parishoners would wonder what happened to your first amendment rights guaranteeing you freedom of religion.

Yes, we are at war. But we are at war with terrorists - Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. We are not at war with your next door neighbor who happens to be a Muslim. We are not at war with a country or with that guy in your office who's family goes to the mosque in town. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. It's not easy to name our enemies as in days past. That is why we need the rights and protections in the Constitution to guarantee everyone equal protection under the law. Our human emotions can never give everyone equal standing, but the law and the Constitution can. Have you ever seen the statue representation of justice? She is wearing a blindfold to represent that justice is blind because that is what we strive for. We need that now more than ever today.

“Any system of government will work when everything is going well. It's the system that functions in the pinches that survives.” -JFK

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Opponents Question Ground Zero Mosque's Murky Funding, Mysterious Sponsors

I believe some are expressing their opinion without having the information needed to express an opinion in favor of this. Perhaps this article will help you. As this article says, there be some mystrous sponsors, plus those approving it may have done so wrongly.


That's not a news article, it's propoganda. The planning commission didn't "approve" what is to be build there, they merely decided that the existing building does not deserve landmark status (a decision totally within their discretion). In the end, the facility will be built and this issue will be forgotten within a few months.

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If America would throw out its Christians heritage, beliefs, the worlds view of America would instantly change. Them the Islam's could have their way. Christianity is the one thing holding them back.

I might add, America is slowly throwing out its Christians beliefs, and many professing Christians are helping her to meet that goal.

What one deems propaganda and or a truth is always base on one's core beliefs, values, where their sympathies lie.

In this world it is good verse evil, or one could say Satan versus God. Its just a matter of which side one is on.

God and His Holy Spirit is the only thing holding back evil, it shall not always be that way, when Jesus comes for His on that will change.

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If America would throw out its Christians heritage, beliefs, the worlds view of America would instantly change. Them the Islam's could have their way. Christianity is the one thing holding them back.

I might add, America is slowly throwing out its Christians beliefs, and many professing Christians are helping her to meet that goal.

What one deems propaganda and or a truth is always base on one's core beliefs, values, where their sympathies lie.

In this world it is good verse evil, or one could say Satan versus God. Its just a matter of which side one is on.

God and His Holy Spirit is the only thing holding back evil, it shall not always be that way, when Jesus comes for His on that will change.


prop·a·gan·da   [prop-uh-gan-duh]
–noun
1.
information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2.
the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3.
the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.

Propaganda is not subjective and truth most definitely isn't. It is not the jOB of the American government to uphold Christian ideals nor would it be right for them to do so. The government cannot favor one religion over the other.

Also, I disagree that Christianity is holding Muslims back from building a community center or a mosque or practicing their religion as they see fit. At least I certainly hope that is not the case. Instead I see the prOBlem as ignorance. In some cases it is willful, in some cases it is not (so don't think I am saying ignorance in an accusatory manner, just stating it).

People OBject to this and I think that it is an important topic to discuss. However, I would like to challenge you logically present your points and to discuss this with me and others without posting articles or falling back on the same old "America used to be a Christian nation but now it's evil so we better hope Jesus comes back soon" argument. Not trying to be rude or offensive, but I'd like to engage in a meaningful discussion about these issues if possible.

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