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Ground Zero Mosque Should Not Be Built


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No, I never said what you accused Jerry and I of saying.

You can stick your head in the sand if you want to. Contemporary as well as the entire historical record of Islam says just what I've posted. The evidence is all around you from within this country to many other countries around the world today.

There is no need to take anything out of context from their "holy book", read it yourself, it's all there in clear terms and in context. Find a factual book on the history of Islam, not some modern PC sugarcoated edition, but a real book of history. Islam is a militant religion with a specific part of every Muslim to play in the conquering of the world for "allah".

What's the point about lots of Muslims dying every day? So do lots of others and without Christ they are all going to hell.

No, we are not fighting alongside Muslims in our war on terror, there are some Muslims going by the principle of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and using America in an attempt to rid them of their rivals. They are in no way out to stop the Islamification of the world. Iran was once a "friend" of America, as was Iraq. Turkey, Lebonon, etc....

I've lived long enough to personally see the results of denying reality in such situations. I've been blessed to know many good men who were born in the late 1800s to early 1900s who knew first hand how blessed America once was and how reality and common sense were the rule prior to the rise of what would eventually become the PC era.

Even if one chooses to ignore these realities, if one professes to be a Christian they should be standing against such a terrible false religion as Islam which is leading millions to hell, killing/has killed millions who will/did go to hell, actively seeks to prevent Christians from presenting the Gospel to Muslims, and is intent upon refuting and eradicating the truth about Christ.


Maybe I'm confused. Have you not said that Islam is a "militant religion" and that "every Muslim" has a "part to play in the conquering of the whole world . . .?" And if I'm not confused (which I'm not, by the way), then please explain the difference between saying these things and saying "every Muslim is a terrorists." Just to clear up any further confusion, I define "terrorist" as anyone who supports the use of or uses terror to further his or her cause, which includes not only those that implement the terror, but also those that fund them and direct their operations.

The prOBlem with your position John is the facts as I see them. Why should I believe what you and other uncredible sources say about Islam rather than what history and reality has showed me? Why should I believe that my neighbor, who is a good husband to his wife and a good father to his children and who helps when I am in need, is really this evil conspirator just waiting until the right time to kill me? It is OBvious not all Muslims are terrorists. The previous statement about Muslims dying everyday was meant to show that the vast majority of Muslims live a full and complete life on this earth without ever having any part in terrorism or "the conquering of the world," or whatever it is you want to call it.

What do you say about the Muslims serving in our military? Are they really terrorist whose "part to play" is killing other terrorist until the right time comes for them to kill non-Muslims?

If Islam was all about conquering and killing, then what are they waiting for? They've had almost two thousand years to gather their forces together to launch this mythical world attack, yet all we see is the ever so often crudely planned attack that usually only kills their own kind. If every Muslim is in on it, then why don't they just form a super army and start the invasion? They have the money. They have all the resources. The fact of the matter is that these people that you describe are only a small element, just like extremists Christian organizations (which for some reason or another are rarely even addressed here, much less denounced), that have no far reaching influence or control. That's why their attacks are usually petty assualts on civilians that have little to no lasting affects whatsoever.
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There is no "may be" about it. There have been muslims living in peace us in this country for generations. In my city alone there are three or four mosques and/or islamic centers and we have never had one iota of trouble with them. My neighbors are muslims and they detest Al Queda prOBably more so than most Americans because, not only do they find terrorism counter to their core beliefs, but also because of people like Jerry and John who now think that every muslim is a suicide bomber just waiting to launch their own jihad against us.

I would venture to say that most, if not all, the people on this board that hold this view either live in a very rural area that has no muslims, or they live in a very closed society in which they never interact with the muslims around them. All of their information about Islam comes from inflammatory websites or tag lines taken from the Koran with no muslim commentary about how said lines are to be interpreted. As CPR said previously, it's a matter of of either being uninformed or misinformed. It appears that this view (that all muslims are terrorist) did not exists until 9/11. It's as if people have forgoten that Islam has been with us since the 7th century and that muslims and Christians have been living side by side in many nations since that time.

There is no doubt that Islam, like Christianity, has an extremists element within it. However, like Christianity, the vast amount of evience suggests these extremists are a small minority. I have been to Cairo (the largest Muslim city on the planet) and Dubai and I was always treated with respect and civility. I would even say that those two muslim nations reminded me a lot more of home(the American South) than some European countries I have visted because of their courtesy, modesty and hospitality. I spoke to a muslim guard outside of the Hanging Church in Cairo (one of the oldest Christian Churches in the world) about why he was there (he was in full uniform bearing an assault rifle). He said that he, a Muslim, was there to guard the Christian Church against possible attacks. I didn't realize the irony of that situation until reading this thread.


How many times have you gone into one of those mosques and listened to what was preached? I went on a daily basis for 10 years... What is preached is not as nice and innocent as many would have you believe. Usually the lecture is first given in arabic and then in english. Oddly the two messages are never quite the same.. the one in arabic tends to be a little bit more stern and hateful whereas the english one for the non arabic speaking people (i.e. visitors and new reverts) is often kinder.

There are many muslims who live peacefully... yes... but i promise you...many of those that think you are so sweet and nice and innocent are the same ones who as soon as you turn your back call you a liar, say you are dirty, and call you an idol worshipper.

Muslims are taught to not befriend christians... The quran teaches this...so do the ahadith.

I spent 10 years as a muslim... I know what really goes on in most mosques. Even the peaceful kind muslims are not as peaceful or kind as they appear. During my years as a muslim, I travelled all over the US and some parts of the Middle East... my experience is not from just one mosque but from many across the US.

I am not anti muslim... I am anti islam. I honestly feel bad for most muslims because they have no idea the lies and brainwashing they have fallen for... with that said... I also know not to trust that any muslim I see or speak to because they are not always as they appear.

There is truth to the whole can't say all muslims are bad because of the few who commit terrorist acts BUT again I say... by the time you figure out who is bad and who isn't...it is usually too late.

The purpose of this whole mosque/center thingy on Ground Zero is purely out of spite. There is no denying muslims were behind the acts of 9-11. How tactless do you have to be to want to build something on the same ground that people of their religion killed so many innocent people? If it was to promote understanding then they would at least be decent enough to build away from Ground Zero.

As you sit here defending a group that I highly doubt you have seen in their place of worship as much as I have, keep in mind...what you see in public and what is taught and how people act in the mosque is two completely different things!
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You just said it again. And you have absolutely no evidence that all of the millions of muslims across the planet are funneling money to "armed elements" or that they are lying in wait for the right moment to kill us. They come to this country for the same reasons as almost all immigrants: for a better life for themselves and their families. They work hard, pay their taxes and mind their business like everyone else should be doing.

You do realize that hundreds of thousands of muslims die everyday without ever harming anyone or funding terrorists organizations, don't you? Surely you know that we are fighting along side muslims in our war on terrorism, that we have muslims in our military putting their lives on the line so that you and I can have the freedoms we enjoy.

And as far as their holy book demanding that they lie, cheat, steal and kill, I'm sure I could find a few verses from our Bible that, when taken out of context or bent and twisted, could be made to say some not so pleasant things as well.


But it isn't taken out of context to lie, cheat, and steal and kill in islam...that is what it teaches. Right now... this very minute...according to islam, any muslim has the right to MURDER me because I left islam... That is not taken out of context, that is what islam teaches.

As to the funneling of money to 'armed elements'... actually that is quite true BUT often that is due to the fact that most charity organizations in Islamic countries are controlled by these 'armed elements'. There is not a single Palestinian charity that is not controlled one way or another by Hamas or Fatah.

Often when american muslims donate to one of these causes there intent is to help... not always to fund the terrorists but in the end...they are still funding the terrorist.
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But it isn't taken out of context to lie, cheat, and steal and kill in islam...that is what it teaches. Right now... this very minute...according to islam, any muslim has the right to MURDER me because I left islam... That is not taken out of context, that is what islam teaches.

As to the funneling of money to 'armed elements'... actually that is quite true BUT often that is due to the fact that most charity organizations in Islamic countries are controlled by these 'armed elements'. There is not a single Palestinian charity that is not controlled one way or another by Hamas or Fatah.

Often when american muslims donate to one of these causes there intent is to help... not always to fund the terrorists but in the end...they are still funding the terrorist.


Thanks, koti!
~~
As to the funding....the "owner" of the property was a waiter in 2002....Man, he must've gotten good tips to raise over 4 mil to buy that property...
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If they put that mosque up near ground zero it will be one of the greatest symbolic victories for Islam over the West. I don't care about their "rights". I get so sick of hearing about peoples "rights". These people could care less about the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and don't want the mosque built there.

Listen, the goal of Islam is to spread Sharia Law over the glOBe. They are anti-democracy, anti-republic, anti-Christian, anti-freedom. There is a war between these two ideals on this planet right now. If they build this mosque it will send a message to radical Islam that in time they will win because the West is week. You folks supporting the rights of Muslims to build this mosque must realize that Islam is much more than a religion, it is a complete system containing relgious, legal, economic, social and military components.

When they allow a church to be built in Mecca than maybe we can think about it.

Edited by Wilchbla
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If they put that mosque up near ground zero it will be one of the greatest symbolic victories for Islam over the West. I don't care about their "rights". I get so sick of hearing about peoples "rights". These people could care less about the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and don't want the mosque built there.

Listen, the goal of Islam is to spread Sharia Law over the glOBe. They are anti-democracy, anti-republic, anti-Christian, anti-freedom. There is a war between these two ideals on this planet right now. If they build this mosque it will send a message to radical Islam that in time they will win because the West is week. You folks supporting the rights of Muslims to build this mosque must realize that Islam is much more than a religion, it is a complete system containing relgious, legal, economic, social and military components.

When they allow a church to be built in Mecca than maybe we can think about it.

:thumb:

There's prOBlems in TN now, over the same thing...
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If they put that mosque up near ground zero it will be one of the greatest symbolic victories for Islam over the West. I don't care about their "rights". I get so sick of hearing about peoples "rights". These people could care less about the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and don't want the mosque built there.

Listen, the goal of Islam is to spread Sharia Law over the glOBe. They are anti-democracy, anti-republic, anti-Christian, anti-freedom. There is a war between these two ideals on this planet right now. If they build this mosque it will send a message to radical Islam that in time they will win because the West is week. You folks supporting the rights of Muslims to build this mosque must realize that Islam is much more than a religion, it is a complete system containing relgious, legal, economic, social and military components.

When they allow a church to be built in Mecca than maybe we can think about it.


And this is why we must have a very selective few who control this great country of ours. People, for the most part, tend to let their emotions get the best of them which in turn leads to an abandonment of reason and rationality. In our country, you don't have a right not to have your feelings hurt. I completely sympathize with everyone that lost a loved one on 9/11, however, their emotional sensitivity should not dictate public policy and cannot be allowed to circuMVent the rule of law. The mosque is not being built at ground zero. It is two blocks away, on land owned by those who wish to construct the mostque. There is no ordinance or prohibition against such a facility as proposed. It is every bit their right to build their mosque as much as it is yours and my right to build a place of worship (Christian or otherwise) on our own land. It makes no difference whether or not it hurts our neighbors feelings.

Mecca is not in America. They are a kingdom, not a democracy or a republic. The people of Saudi Arabia have the right to rule themselves as they wish and if they don't want Christian churches in Mecca, so be it. Regardless, their laws and way of life have no bearing on how we choose to govern ourselves - which is to allow each and every person the right to freely practice his or her religion. If you want to live in a country where the Christian Church is the ruling authority, I would suggest that the last place you look is in these United States.

All of these folks screaming against this mosque and the one in Tennessee better be careful what they ask for. If our government has the authority to prevent the construction of religious facilities based solely on the emotional ramifications they may have, it may just be their own Churches being blocked in the future.
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And this is why we must have a very selective few who control this great country of ours. People, for the most part, tend to let their emotions get the best of them which in turn leads to an abandonment of reason and rationality. In our country, you don't have a right not to have your feelings hurt. I completely sympathize with everyone that lost a loved one on 9/11, however, their emotional sensitivity should not dictate public policy and cannot be allowed to circuMVent the rule of law. The mosque is not being built at ground zero. It is two blocks away, on land owned by those who wish to construct the mostque. There is no ordinance or prohibition against such a facility as proposed. It is every bit their right to build their mosque as much as it is yours and my right to build a place of worship (Christian or otherwise) on our own land. It makes no difference whether or not it hurts our neighbors feelings.

Mecca is not in America. They are a kingdom, not a democracy or a republic. The people of Saudi Arabia have the right to rule themselves as they wish and if they don't want Christian churches in Mecca, so be it. Regardless, their laws and way of life have no bearing on how we choose to govern ourselves - which is to allow each and every person the right to freely practice his or her religion. If you want to live in a country where the Christian Church is the ruling authority, I would suggest that the last place you look is in these United States.

All of these folks screaming against this mosque and the one in Tennessee better be careful what they ask for. If our government has the authority to prevent the construction of religious facilities based solely on the emotional ramifications they may have, it may just be their own Churches being blocked in the future.


Exactly. The Middle East isn't the United States. That's what sets our country apart is respect for the rights and freedoms of others. This is not a theocracy. As for the people in Tennessee, they are claiming to be Christians, but I am very surprised that the Christians on here haven't denounced their actions. Vandalism is against the law and their actions hardly show Christian love. Again, if Muslims are denied religious freedom, what makes you think that you won't be next?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin
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I haven't read what's happening in TN, other than that it involves a mosque. I don't approve of vandalism done by anyone for any reason. But I'm not going to comment until I read it (I only mentioned it earlier because of headlines I read).

Nope, the Middle East isn't the United States. And one of the prOBlems that most Americans don't realize is that muslim jihadists have a plan - and that plan is to use our freedoms and rights to destroy us. And it is happening all over this country. That community center is simply a shrine to jihad victory, whether pt or CPR want to admit it or not. And there is strangeness attached to the funding. During a time of war - which is NOW - the government has the right AND the responsibility to make sure that terrorist cells are not forming in relation to this...and researching the funding BEFORE it's built is something they can do.

It's all well and good to cite the first amendment and claim that they have this right just like all Americans. But we are at war. And that is something that changes things, whether young folk like it or not. It's a simple fact, but one that our current Marxist administration is ignoring.

When Sharia law trumps American law, let's all remember that the first amendment guarantees the right to allow questionable buildings built based on supposed religious reasons, regardless of the possibility of it being funded by terrorists.

Imagine this attitude during the 2 world wars. :smilie_loco:4

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Where are we getting this idea that there is some sinister funding behind the mosque in NY? Do we have these same suspicions for every mosque built in America? What about the muslims who build/buy homes here?

I guess it is possible that al queda is funding the mosque. It's also possible that Tiger Woods is funding it, or maybe the estate of Ronald Reagan. For all I know onlinebaptist may be funding it. After all, it's possible.

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Where are we getting this idea that there is some sinister funding behind the mosque in NY? Do we have these same suspicions for every mosque built in America? What about the muslims who build/buy homes here?

I guess it is possible that al queda is funding the mosque. It's also possible that Tiger Woods is funding it, or maybe the estate of Ronald Reagan. For all I know onlinebaptist may be funding it. After all, it's possible.


I believe it was LuAnne who pointed out they are getting foreign funds. It's already proven that Muslim nations send money to Muslim endeavors in America for the purpose of promoting the Islamic takeover of America. Even our "friend" Saudi Arabia funds "extremist Islamic teaching", which is really just Islamic teaching as it is.
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I haven't read what's happening in TN, other than that it involves a mosque. I don't approve of vandalism done by anyone for any reason. But I'm not going to comment until I read it (I only mentioned it earlier because of headlines I read).

Nope, the Middle East isn't the United States. And one of the prOBlems that most Americans don't realize is that muslim jihadists have a plan - and that plan is to use our freedoms and rights to destroy us. And it is happening all over this country. That community center is simply a shrine to jihad victory, whether pt or CPR want to admit it or not. And there is strangeness attached to the funding. During a time of war - which is NOW - the government has the right AND the responsibility to make sure that terrorist cells are not forming in relation to this...and researching the funding BEFORE it's built is something they can do.

It's all well and good to cite the first amendment and claim that they have this right just like all Americans. But we are at war. And that is something that changes things, whether young folk like it or not. It's a simple fact, but one that our current Marxist administration is ignoring.

When Sharia law trumps American law, let's all remember that the first amendment guarantees the right to allow questionable buildings built based on supposed religious reasons, regardless of the possibility of it being funded by terrorists.

Imagine this attitude during the 2 world wars. :smilie_loco:4


Well, that's the thing that I've been trying to say and ptwild has also been saying. This is very different from the 2 world wars or any other war we've fought for that matter. You can't treat it the same way. Naming our enemies takes some discernment and some intellectual work. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... just isn't going to work here.

Also, this isn't a monument to their victory. If it is they're doing a very poor jOB. I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but I live there and I can tell you that 2 blocks can be a long way and there are lots of buildings and establishments between the mosque/community center and ground zero. For goodness sakes there are churches that are closer to ground zero than this building is. In lower Manhattan everything is very close together. Muslims are not building a shrine to a "victory." They are building a community center for people of Islamic faith who live and work in the area.
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Well, that's the thing that I've been trying to say and ptwild has also been saying. This is very different from the 2 world wars or any other war we've fought for that matter. You can't treat it the same way. Naming our enemies takes some discernment and some intellectual work. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... just isn't going to work here.

Also, this isn't a monument to their victory. If it is they're doing a very poor jOB. I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but I live there and I can tell you that 2 blocks can be a long way and there are lots of buildings and establishments between the mosque/community center and ground zero. For goodness sakes there are churches that are closer to ground zero than this building is. In lower Manhattan everything is very close together. Muslims are not building a shrine to a "victory." They are building a community center for people of Islamic faith who live and work in the area.


Every Mosque built is a sign of Muslim conquest. Their beliefs dictate that the building of such claims the land for Islam. Mosques and "Islamic centers" around the glOBe are hotbeds of planning and perpetuation of the Islamification of the world.

No one is forced to be Muslim any more than they were forced to be Nazi.

Ask the Christians in India, Africa and elsewhere what Islam teaches, what they practice and how the "peaceful Muslims" conduct themselves in regards to all this.
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Every Mosque built is a sign of Muslim conquest. Their beliefs dictate that the building of such claims the land for Islam. Mosques and "Islamic centers" around the glOBe are hotbeds of planning and perpetuation of the Islamification of the world.

No one is forced to be Muslim any more than they were forced to be Nazi.

Ask the Christians in India, Africa and elsewhere what Islam teaches, what they practice and how the "peaceful Muslims" conduct themselves in regards to all this.


What are they supposed to have conquered? What did the Muslims in Tennessee conquer? Where are the spoils of their war? I live a few blocks from a mosque and I can tell you first hand that my particular city is not the cite of a "Muslim conquest."

Though I have never lived there, I have spent a fair amount of time in Cairo and Dubai. Both cities have a plethora of Christian churches and the Christians and Muslims get a long just fine. They are friends and business associates. They eat at the same restaurants and take their kids to play in the same parks.

When I think about it, the things you fault Muslims for ("Islamifying the world" and building mosques) are the same things I want as a Christian. I would like to see the "Christianization of the world" (that's why we send missionaries, right?) and I see the building of church in a place which did not have one to be a form of conquest in that Christ has at least conquered the hearts and minds of the Christians there or else there wouldn't be a new church. May be I'm a radical extremists terrorist and didn't even know it. I'm prOBably the one funding the mosque in NY.
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What are they supposed to have conquered? What did the Muslims in Tennessee conquer? Where are the spoils of their war? I live a few blocks from a mosque and I can tell you first hand that my particular city is not the cite of a "Muslim conquest."

Though I have never lived there, I have spent a fair amount of time in Cairo and Dubai. Both cities have a plethora of Christian churches and the Christians and Muslims get a long just fine. They are friends and business associates. They eat at the same restaurants and take their kids to play in the same parks.

When I think about it, the things you fault Muslims for ("Islamifying the world" and building mosques) are the same things I want as a Christian. I would like to see the "Christianization of the world" (that's why we send missionaries, right?) and I see the building of church in a place which did not have one to be a form of conquest in that Christ has at least conquered the hearts and minds of the Christians there or else there wouldn't be a new church. May be I'm a radical extremists terrorist and didn't even know it. I'm prOBably the one funding the mosque in NY.


Believe what you will, but when the time comes about I certainly hope you are watching you and your families backs.

Those Christians and Muslims know exactly where their loyalties lie regardless of who they eat with. When the moment of truth comes about the Muslims will have no non-Muslim friends.
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