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JerryNumbers

Ground Zero Mosque Should Not Be Built

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Living in NYC, this has been a hotly debated issue for quite awhile. I've heard some interesting arguments, and I think that it's our natural knee-jerk reaction to say that it shouldn't be built.

One thing that I heard that has really made me think was someone said that the people who would worship there are the same people who work in the office buildings down there and live in the apartment buildings downtown. There are places of worship for every faith in NYC and not building the mosque near ground zero doesn't change the fact that Muslims live and work there everyday. Muslims were in the buildings that day and died alongside Christians and Jews and people of every faith.

The mosque may remind some people of who did this tragedy but it shouldn't. Muslims didn't do it, Al Qaeda did. You can call me a liberal or whatever you want, but there is a difference. The fact is extremism in any form is dangerous. Unfortunately, some people do bad things in the name of religion. Most Christians wouldn't want to be associated with groups who have tried to bomb clinics that perform abortions or with the man a few months ago who shot the doctor because he performed abortions. Most Christians wouldn't want to be associated with Westboro Baptist. Most Muslims don't want to be associated with Al Qaeda.

I don't know if it will be built or not, but if it isn't I hope it's not because they were run out of the area by public outcry or forced to go somewhere else. If one religious group doesn't have the freedom to worship where they choose, then no one is really free.

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Al Qaeda is made up of Muslims and Muslims support them.

Islam is an extremist religion. Islam was founded on and in war. Islam was spread by force, violence and war. Islam teaches that all must become Muslim or die. Islam teaches Muslims are to spread Islam by any means, including deception (lies) and murder, until the world is Muslim.

When Muslims build a Mosque they are claiming the land it's built in for Allah (their false god). Placing a Mosque near Ground Zero is claiming that area for Allah (along with NYC, NY and the USA).

Yes indeed you are liberal. You tend to take a liberal position in most threads.

The vast difference between Al Qaeda and Islam, and Westboro and Christianity, is that what Al Qaeda practices is taught in their "holy book" while Westboro does not practice what the Bible teaches. Very true that most Christians want nothing to do with Westboro and support them in no way. However, Al Qaeda is supported by a vast network of Muslims around the world giving money, resources and cover for them. Overall, Muslims support Al Qaeda and/or groups similar to them.

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Of course the people who support Al Qaeda are Muslims but the people who plant bombs at Planned Parenthood are "Christians". You can find plenty of examples in the history of Christianity of conversion by force, deception, etc. although it is a deplorable practice.

Do you have any friendships with Muslims? They ones I know live, work, raise families and, yes, worship. They're not trying to convert anyone they're just living their lives. They are just as outraged by Muslim terrorist organizations because they are Americans and the violence threatens their families and friends.

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He singled out Republican Congressman Peter King, whose opinion, he said, "should not be considered because his ideas are extreme.

Rep. King, the ranking Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, said he favors an investigation into the funding of a proposed mosque near ground zero and has demanded an investigation into the financing of the center. He wants to know who is really footing the bill for the $100 million project.

"It's a house of worship, but we are at war with al-Qaida," King told The Associated Press. "I think the 9/11 families have a right to know where the funding comes from; I think there are significant questions.

"Right at this moment in history, it's bad form to put it there," he said. "There are things you are allowed to do, but that aren't appropriate to do."

According to Imam Abdul Rauf, the Islamic center would be financed through contributions from Muslims here in the United States, and by donations from various Arab and Islamic countries. He admits that building a Mosque, due to accommodate some 2,000 worshippers, has stirred heated controversy and criticism from families of 9/11 victims.


Okay, so the head of CAIR (an organization with connections to jihadists...) says Peter King should be ignored. Hmmmm. Why? If this mosque is just a place for peace-loving muslims to worship, they shouldn't be upset at disclosing where the money is coming from.

And the imam says there will be (maybe already have) donations from various Arab and Islamic (isn't that pretty redundant?) countries...Well, last I looked, a good number of those islamic countries support jihad and sharia law. Something that doesn't belong in America.

Peter King hit the nail on the head: this isn't appropriate. And that isn't a knee-jerk reaction (sorry, CPR, but that comment wasn't really very kind - strong feelings abound about this and not every American opposes it in a knee-jerk reactive way.) At this time, we are at war with islamic jihad. And, whether we like it or not, many mosques in this country TEACH jihad to the worshippers (and that isn't my word - that comes from muslims who know). Who's to say this one won't? Who's to say it will? But to build it so near the site of 9-11 is wrong on so many counts.

And to build it ON the site of a business that was closed after being struck by fallout from the attack...

The planners and attackers on 9-11 (and even before that) were muslim. Allowing this mosque to be built where they are planning it (and, tell me, if it's just for worship - why in the world are muslim nations donating to it??) is a slap in the face at those who died there, and those who have died since fighting the jihadists.

Those who plant bombs at abortion clinics are not Christian in any way. They are not OBeying God (like the muslims who are OBeying Allah) - they are OBeying the god of this world (huh - same god, actually, that jihadis OBey). Just because they claim Christianity or the media labels them such does not make it so. TRUE Christians have NEVER used force to convert, nor have they used deception. Please note I said TRUE Christians.

Yes, there are muslims who are outraged at what's happened. And those muslims should speak up and say no to the mosque. It can be built elsewhere.

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Okay, so the head of CAIR (an organization with connections to jihadists...) says Peter King should be ignored. Hmmmm. Why? If this mosque is just a place for peace-loving muslims to worship, they shouldn't be upset at disclosing where the money is coming from.

And the imam says there will be (maybe already have) donations from various Arab and Islamic (isn't that pretty redundant?) countries...Well, last I looked, a good number of those islamic countries support jihad and sharia law. Something that doesn't belong in America.

Peter King hit the nail on the head: this isn't appropriate. And that isn't a knee-jerk reaction (sorry, CPR, but that comment wasn't really very kind - strong feelings abound about this and not every American opposes it in a knee-jerk reactive way.) At this time, we are at war with islamic jihad. And, whether we like it or not, many mosques in this country TEACH jihad to the worshippers (and that isn't my word - that comes from muslims who know). Who's to say this one won't? Who's to say it will? But to build it so near the site of 9-11 is wrong on so many counts.

And to build it ON the site of a business that was closed after being struck by fallout from the attack...

The planners and attackers on 9-11 (and even before that) were muslim. Allowing this mosque to be built where they are planning it (and, tell me, if it's just for worship - why in the world are muslim nations donating to it??) is a slap in the face at those who died there, and those who have died since fighting the jihadists.

Those who plant bombs at abortion clinics are not Christian in any way. They are not OBeying God (like the muslims who are OBeying Allah) - they are OBeying the god of this world (huh - same god, actually, that jihadis OBey). Just because they claim Christianity or the media labels them such does not make it so. TRUE Christians have NEVER used force to convert, nor have they used deception. Please note I said TRUE Christians.

Yes, there are muslims who are outraged at what's happened. And those muslims should speak up and say no to the mosque. It can be built elsewhere.


I agree that it is bad form and insensitive. However, my argument is simply that we shouldn't endeavor to prevent it through legal channels. If we violate one religion's freedom then every religion is at risk. People do things everyday under the First Amendment that I disagree with. However, that's why we have the First Amendment. Everyone is allowed the same freedoms and people are not subject to what I or anyone else thinks is right or appropriate.

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Of course the people who support Al Qaeda are Muslims but the people who plant bombs at Planned Parenthood are "Christians". You can find plenty of examples in the history of Christianity of conversion by force, deception, etc. although it is a deplorable practice.

Do you have any friendships with Muslims? They ones I know live, work, raise families and, yes, worship. They're not trying to convert anyone they're just living their lives. They are just as outraged by Muslim terrorist organizations because they are Americans and the violence threatens their families and friends.


Where are all these examples of biblical Christians forcing conversions? They don't exist because biblical Christian conversion cannot be forced. Catholics have a long history of forcing their false "Christianity" upon others but not actual Christians.

Islam teaches Muslims to blend into a society they are not yet strong enough to confront. Islam also teaches Muslims it is right to deceive the infidels (all non-Muslims) while secretly working to undermine them.

The largest amoung of money going to "radical Islamists" comes from "mainstream Muslims". Not all Muslims take to the field of battle, many infiltrate places of business, education, government. Many find their means to spread Islam by giving money and other resources to the "radical Islamists".

The point being Islam teaches violence and subterfuge and the conversion of the world by any means or the killing of all who refuse. This is their teaching.

Christianity teaches none of this. Scripture is clear that as to who is and who isn't a true Christian. Just because Catholics, JWs and Mormons get lumped together with dozens of others claiming to be Christian doesn't make it so. Scripture reveals their falsehood. Scripture is also clear true Christians are few and they can be known by their fruit.

There is no comparison between biblical Christianity and Islam.

To answer your question, yes I've known many Muslims. Some were more radical than others, some tried to blend in more than others. They all followed Islam and stood by what the Koran says.

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Okay, so the head of CAIR (an organization with connections to jihadists...) says Peter King should be ignored. Hmmmm. Why? If this mosque is just a place for peace-loving muslims to worship, they shouldn't be upset at disclosing where the money is coming from.

And the imam says there will be (maybe already have) donations from various Arab and Islamic (isn't that pretty redundant?) countries...Well, last I looked, a good number of those islamic countries support jihad and sharia law. Something that doesn't belong in America.

Peter King hit the nail on the head: this isn't appropriate. And that isn't a knee-jerk reaction (sorry, CPR, but that comment wasn't really very kind - strong feelings abound about this and not every American opposes it in a knee-jerk reactive way.) At this time, we are at war with islamic jihad. And, whether we like it or not, many mosques in this country TEACH jihad to the worshippers (and that isn't my word - that comes from muslims who know). Who's to say this one won't? Who's to say it will? But to build it so near the site of 9-11 is wrong on so many counts.

And to build it ON the site of a business that was closed after being struck by fallout from the attack...

The planners and attackers on 9-11 (and even before that) were muslim. Allowing this mosque to be built where they are planning it (and, tell me, if it's just for worship - why in the world are muslim nations donating to it??) is a slap in the face at those who died there, and those who have died since fighting the jihadists.

Those who plant bombs at abortion clinics are not Christian in any way. They are not OBeying God (like the muslims who are OBeying Allah) - they are OBeying the god of this world (huh - same god, actually, that jihadis OBey). Just because they claim Christianity or the media labels them such does not make it so. TRUE Christians have NEVER used force to convert, nor have they used deception. Please note I said TRUE Christians.

Yes, there are muslims who are outraged at what's happened. And those muslims should speak up and say no to the mosque. It can be built elsewhere.


Good post. We also shouldn't forget that a Mosque isn't a place of worship as Christians think of such. Mosque's are often at the very heart of terrorist plots and where Islamic leaders spread their message of death to the infidels. A Mosque is also a very political place. Muslims don't separate their lives like so many American Christains do. For the Muslim, every aspect of life is about Islam and whether calling out to their false God thanking him for something or plotting a coup or terrorist attack or how to establish a Muslim school to indoctrinate more into Islam; all these are viewed as appropriate activity within a Mosque.

Muslims have done a good jOB lulling the public by calling Mosques "places of worship" when they are actually for from that.

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It is my understanding that it is a common practice for Muslims to build Mosques at the sites of what they consider to be great victories in conquering their enemies. Perhaps this is just a coincidence as to the location; perhaps it is as the developer says (an attempt to build a bridge); but with not knowing who to trust in a religion that lies, pretends to be your friend and then kills you....I have lost my naivety about "Islam" and do not for a second believe there is not something more sinister in their motives and choices as to this building a Mosque in that location.

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It is my understanding that it is a common practice for Muslims to build Mosques at the sites of what they consider to be great victories in conquering their enemies. Perhaps this is just a coincidence as to the location; perhaps it is as the developer says (an attempt to build a bridge); but with not knowing who to trust in a religion that lies, pretends to be your friend and then kills you....I have lost my naivety about "Islam" and do not for a second believe there is not something more sinister in their motives and choices as to this building a Mosque in that location.


I don't think there can be any doubt that the planning of something this large happened by chance and Muslims are not interested in "building bridges". Indeed this is their way of staking a claim to this spot and the Muslim world would see it as a victory sign.

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I agree that it is bad form and insensitive. However, my argument is simply that we shouldn't endeavor to prevent it through legal channels. If we violate one religion's freedom then every religion is at risk. People do things everyday under the First Amendment that I disagree with. However, that's why we have the First Amendment. Everyone is allowed the same freedoms and people are not subject to what I or anyone else thinks is right or appropriate.

I'm sorry, but that is not true in times of war. This could very well come under the category of giving succor to the enemy. I know that the rank and file of muslims are not our enemy. But jihadists are, that is whom we are fighting. Allowing this mosque to be built so near the site of an attack on our country, with monies donated by some of the very countries we are fighting, is bowing to the enemy. And, uh, could possibly be treasonous if enemy nations are donating...

Religious liberty, via the first amendment, was never written to allow enemy combatants succor in the US. Again, I know the argument that those who worship there will be those who work in the area...but, really, that isn't going to be the case - donations from muslim nations should really sound alarms for people. An Islamic center? Several stories? It's much more than a mosque.

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It is my understanding that it is a common practice for Muslims to build Mosques at the sites of what they consider to be great victories in conquering their enemies. Perhaps this is just a coincidence as to the location; perhaps it is as the developer says (an attempt to build a bridge); but with not knowing who to trust in a religion that lies, pretends to be your friend and then kills you....I have lost my naivety about "Islam" and do not for a second believe there is not something more sinister in their motives and choices as to this building a Mosque in that location.


Exactly!

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I'm sorry, but that is not true in times of war. This could very well come under the category of giving succor to the enemy. I know that the rank and file of muslims are not our enemy. But jihadists are, that is whom we are fighting. Allowing this mosque to be built so near the site of an attack on our country, with monies donated by some of the very countries we are fighting, is bowing to the enemy. And, uh, could possibly be treasonous if enemy nations are donating...

Religious liberty, via the first amendment, was never written to allow enemy combatants succor in the US. Again, I know the argument that those who worship there will be those who work in the area...but, really, that isn't going to be the case - donations from muslim nations should really sound alarms for people. An Islamic center? Several stories? It's much more than a mosque.


Actually spiritually as well as earthly, all Muslims are our enemy. True enough some may be less of the a threat than others, but enemies none-the-less.

Good points regarding wartime. Prior to WWII there were many German-American organizations. While some took on part of the Nazi influence during the 30s, not all did. Even so, when America and Germany went to war nearly all the German-American organizations shut down; both for good reasons and for appearance.

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Actually spiritually as well as earthly, all Muslims are our enemy. True enough some may be less of the a threat than others, but enemies none-the-less.

Good points regarding wartime. Prior to WWII there were many German-American organizations. While some took on part of the Nazi influence during the 30s, not all did. Even so, when America and Germany went to war nearly all the German-American organizations shut down; both for good reasons and for appearance.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Muslims are our enemy spiritually - other than to say that the BELIEF system is at enmity with God. Muslims are just as deluded (blinded by satan) as Catholics, Orthodox, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, etc. Their belief system is our enemy, but I cannot call a Muslim my enemy by virtue of their faith. They need Christ, but if I view them as my personal enemy, I won't witness to them...

As to the German issue druing WWII - I used to work with a lady who was 2nd generation German. Her parents came over here and became citizens. But during that war, none of her family were allowed to join the US military because of their German roots. Hmmmm...maybe, if those who make decisions still had guts, the Fort Hood massacre would never have happened....

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I wouldn't go so far as to say the Muslims are our enemy spiritually - other than to say that the BELIEF system is at enmity with God. Muslims are just as deluded (blinded by satan) as Catholics, Orthodox, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, etc. Their belief system is our enemy, but I cannot call a Muslim my enemy by virtue of their faith. They need Christ, but if I view them as my personal enemy, I won't witness to them...


On a spiritual level all these false religions serve the enemy; they are the enemies of God. We were once enemies of God. Our means of spiritual "combat" is witnessing to them. We "eliminate" enemies by bringing them to Christ (not by wordly means of fighing or killing).

As you say, they are deluded and our only means of helping them to see the truth is to present The Truth to them, Jesus Christ.

While we may have to face worldly enemies in a different manner sometimes, spiritual enemies are dealt with in only one way; spiritually, as Scripture teaches.

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Okay, so the head of CAIR (an organization with connections to jihadists...) says Peter King should be ignored. Hmmmm. Why? If this mosque is just a place for peace-loving muslims to worship, they shouldn't be upset at disclosing where the money is coming from.

And the imam says there will be (maybe already have) donations from various Arab and Islamic (isn't that pretty redundant?) countries...Well, last I looked, a good number of those islamic countries support jihad and sharia law. Something that doesn't belong in America.

Peter King hit the nail on the head: this isn't appropriate. And that isn't a knee-jerk reaction (sorry, CPR, but that comment wasn't really very kind - strong feelings abound about this and not every American opposes it in a knee-jerk reactive way.) At this time, we are at war with islamic jihad. And, whether we like it or not, many mosques in this country TEACH jihad to the worshippers (and that isn't my word - that comes from muslims who know). Who's to say this one won't? Who's to say it will? But to build it so near the site of 9-11 is wrong on so many counts.

And to build it ON the site of a business that was closed after being struck by fallout from the attack...

The planners and attackers on 9-11 (and even before that) were muslim. Allowing this mosque to be built where they are planning it (and, tell me, if it's just for worship - why in the world are muslim nations donating to it??) is a slap in the face at those who died there, and those who have died since fighting the jihadists.

Those who plant bombs at abortion clinics are not Christian in any way. They are not OBeying God (like the muslims who are OBeying Allah) - they are OBeying the god of this world (huh - same god, actually, that jihadis OBey). Just because they claim Christianity or the media labels them such does not make it so. TRUE Christians have NEVER used force to convert, nor have they used deception. Please note I said TRUE Christians.

Yes, there are muslims who are outraged at what's happened. And those muslims should speak up and say no to the mosque. It can be built elsewhere.



True, but their holy book tells, teaches, them if we, Christians, refuse to convert, murder them, them take what they have for yours.

It teaches them to do this no matter if they supporting members of Al Qaeda or some other group, or even if they're the so called good Musilms spoken of by both Mr. Bush and Mr. OBama.

In fact, if they do not hold to theses truths they're not good Muslims according to their Holy Book.

In America we seem to be losing freedoms on one way, yet our enemies seem to be using freedoms in order to have the upper hand. Muslims are great at it, for its OK according to their Holy Book to lie, cheat, and murder in order to advance their faith. There is no "Golden Rule" for them.







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I'm sorry, but that is not true in times of war. This could very well come under the category of giving succor to the enemy. I know that the rank and file of muslims are not our enemy. But jihadists are, that is whom we are fighting. Allowing this mosque to be built so near the site of an attack on our country, with monies donated by some of the very countries we are fighting, is bowing to the enemy. And, uh, could possibly be treasonous if enemy nations are donating...

Religious liberty, via the first amendment, was never written to allow enemy combatants succor in the US. Again, I know the argument that those who worship there will be those who work in the area...but, really, that isn't going to be the case - donations from muslim nations should really sound alarms for people. An Islamic center? Several stories? It's much more than a mosque.


Actually it is the case in times of war. That's when we need these protections the most. We usually don't mind allowing freedoms for people that we agree with or when everything is going well. It's when times are tough that we need to ensure these protections. Also, it's important to remember that we aren't fighting a country. We aren't at war with Iraq or Afghanistan- there has been no such thing declared- we are fighting a war against terrorist organizations and part of the war is taking place in those countries. It is an important distinction.

Muslim-Americans are not enemy combatants. To be honest, I'm a little disturbed that anyone would suggest that. (Not necessarily you, HC, speaking broadly of all comments.) Again, there are lots and lots of mosques and Islamic centers in the US. Also, this center will not be located on the actual Ground Zero site, it is several blocks away. Now I understand that that is uncomfortably close, but realistically, where should we draw the line? Lower Manhattan? NYC?

And you are correct, it's a mis-nomer that this has been characterized as a mosque. It is actually an Islamic community center. From my understanding of what I have read about it there will be a room for prayer/worship, but the main structure is a community center. Also keep in mind that they are using a pre-existing building and in NYC most buildings are multiple stories but the individual floors may or may not be very large. They, like most everyone else have to adapt to the sometimes cramped space in NYC!

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Muslim countries may be our enemies. But we make the most inplaccable, Saudi, our ally. The most anti Christian, anti Jewish, country on earth as well as the one that funds must of the mosques in the west.

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Muslim countries may be our enemies. But we make the most inplaccable, Saudi, our ally. The most anti Christian, anti Jewish, country on earth as well as the one that funds must of the mosques in the west.


I don't think you'll hear to many here defending Saudi Arabia or the US relationship with them.

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Read the Bible. It says very differently.


John, with all due respect that doesn't even make sense in response to what I posted. I have and do read the Bible, so I'm not sure why you would assume otherwise.

I'm merely trying to engage in a discussion about an issue that has people with reasonable opinions on both sides, even though it can be an emotional issue. I simply presented some facts that are true and brought up some things to think about. I didn't bring up any biblical issues. Constitutional/legal issues, yes. Biblical issues, no.

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As Christians our first duty is to consult Scripture on all matters and adjust our beliefs, attitudes and actions according to the Word of God. All other considerations are secondary at best and if they don't align with Scripture they are not to be followed.

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As Christians our first duty is to consult Scripture on all matters and adjust our beliefs, attitudes and actions according to the Word of God. All other considerations are secondary at best and if they don't align with Scripture they are not to be followed.


I will agree with you there, but I think that we are derailing here and stating things the OBvious that we both agree on and know to be true. I haven't said anything contrary to Scripture, I'm just try to discuss how the first amendment applies in this situation. I'm also trying to point out that Americans who happen to be Muslims are not enemy combatants.

If you are trying to take this in a spiritual direction, then yes, as Christians it is our duty to be a light for Jesus in the world to everyone, but I still would not call anyone an enemy combatant even in spiritual terms. Not saying that you would either, just launching a bit of a cyber pre-emptive strike! :lol::11backtotopic:

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The First Amendment doesn't give carte blanche to the building of religious buildings anywhere they want.

A town near here has ordinances which prohibit churches and businesses selling booze from being within 2 blocks of one another.

Various zoning laws prohibit the building of religious places. The desires of locals, and sometimes of others, can impact what can be built where.

There is no "right" for a Muslim center to be built in that location. There is plenty of room for discretion to either deny such or allow it.

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One is either for Christ, or against Christ. One is either on Christ side, or they stand against Christ.

As for the Muslims, they stand against Christ, and for Allah who is not a God, and the only kind of Allah can be is a god with a little g.

Muslims are rightly a spiritual enemy of those who walk with Jesus, but it would do nothing but harm to openly call them a spiritual enemy.

But it does no one any good to humor the Muslims by saying they worship the same God as we do. And yes, some have said this, even President Bush.

I recall "The Sword of the Lord" had an article on Islam quite while back, they told it just like it is, and rightly so, wish I had kept that article so that I could reference to the truths they wrote about it. I believe it was called, " 'Islam: A Raging Storm.'

http://www.theKJvstore.com/product_detail.php?sid=qiwzyzzb&mcid=3&pgid=1419&PHPSESSID=qiwzyzzb

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