Why Some Dispensationalists are Like Evolutionists

[anime4christ]

Protestant Persecution of Baptists in Early America

Yay! Awesome Reformed Baptist website! Wait, you weren't meaning to promote that, right? Just messing around... all in good humor.

[John81]

How can you have a Christians nation if unbelievers are allowed to serve in offices of that nation?

You can't; which is one of the reasons America has fallen so far, so fast. The early states tended to require one be a believer to hold public office and this influenced who also served from the states in the central government. Unfortunately the states dropped their requirements that office holders be believers and this in turn effected who ended up serving in the central government as well since they were not required to be believers.

Again, we see the inevitable danger of accepting all religions as equal and free in America. Today America has many office holders who are Muslims, worship one of the Indian "gods", and others.

Sadly, America was doomed to failure because the Founders failed to specifically make this a Christian nation.

[HappyChristian]

You can't; which is one of the reasons America has fallen so far, so fast. The early states tended to require one be a believer to hold public office and this influenced who also served from the states in the central government. Unfortunately the states dropped their requirements that office holders be believers and this in turn effected who ended up serving in the central government as well since they were not required to be believers.

Again, we see the inevitable danger of accepting all religions as equal and free in America. Today America has many office holders who are Muslims, worship one of the Indian "gods", and others.

Sadly, America was doomed to failure because the Founders failed to specifically make this a Christian nation.

*sigh* America was NOT doomed to failure because the Founders "failed" in any way!! This country was created with religious liberty so that Christianity could thrive. John, you have absolutely no understanding of what the founders and those who influenced them went through with the religious governments they had to endure. They knew that a nation could not be rightly told that they must be a certain faith. Any failures in this country are due to the Christians who have not done what they should in soulwinning and other areas.

There were a few states that had religious requirements, but these were disestablished really quite quickly - the first two being in 1776, the final one (CT) being in 1818.

Roger Williams, one of the first Baptists here in America...and a man persecuted by those who wanted a state run by the church and a church run by the state, said:

The Church and State need not be, Williams insisted, inextricably linked: 'A Pagan or Antichristian Pilot may be as skillful to carry the Ship to its desired Port, as any Christian Mariner or Pilot in the World, and may perform that work with as much safety and speed.' 'God requireth not an Uniformity of Religion to be inacted and inforced in any Civill State,' he declared. Rather, the tares in the field of Christian grain must be left alone; let man hold whatever religious opinions he chooses provided he does not 'actually disturb civil peace,' ran a provision of the Rhode Island Charter of 1663; let civil government be based on the consent of the governed. 'The Soveraigne, originall, and foundation of civil power lies in the People,' Williams insisted. They 'may erect and establish what forme of Government seemes to them most meete for their Civill condition.'

As I mentioned before, if the Constitution is followed, one does not need to be a Christian. A true Constitutionalist will champion liberty in all areas - even if they themselves are not Christian. And that is what we had at the founding of this country...thanks to the Baptists.
From Williams' tract:

...Fourthly. The doctrine of persecution for cause of conscience, is proved guilty of all the blood of the souls crying for vengeance under the altar.
Fifthly. All civil states, with their officers of justice, in their respective constitutions and administrations, are proved essentially civil, and therefore not judges, governors, or defenders of the spiritual, or Christian, state and worship.
Sixthly. It is the will and command of God that, since the coming of his Son the Lord Jesus, a permission of the most Paganish, Jewish, Turkish, or antichristian consciences and worships be granted to all men in all nations and countries: and they are only to be fought against with that sword which is only, in soul matters, able to conquer: to wit, the sword of God's Spirit, the word of God.
Seventhly. The state of the land of Israel, the kings and people thereof, in peace and war, is proved figurative and ceremonial, and no pattern nor precedent for any kingdom or civil state in the world to follow.
Eighthly. God requireth not an uniformity of religion to be enacted and enforced in any civil state; which enforced uniformity, sooner or later, is the greatest occasion of civil war, ravishing of conscience, persecution of Christ Jesus in his servants, and of the hypocrisy and destruction of millions of souls.
Ninthly. In holding an enforced uniformity of religion in a civil state, we must necessarily disclaim our desires and hopes of the Jews' conversion to Christ.
Tenthly. An enforced uniformity of religion throughout a nation or civil state, confounds the civil and religious, denies the principles of Christianity and civility, and that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
Eleventhly. The permission of other consciences and worships than a state professeth, only can, according to God, procure a firm and lasting peace; good assurance being taken, according to the wisdom of the civil state, for uniformity of civil OBedience from all sorts.
Twelfthly. Lastly, true civility and Christianity may both flourish in a state or kingdom, notwithstanding the permission of divers and contrary consciences, either of Jew or Gentile... (Roger Williams. The Bloudy Teneent of Persecution for the Cause of Conscience Discussed, 1644. excerpted from A.T. Mason. Free Government in the Making. New York: Oxford University Press, 1965, p. 64)
.

Those sentiments were carried by the other early Baptists, and were shown in the VA plan for the Constitution. But only one amendment suggestion mentioned religion...and that was that man should worship God according to his conscience (more wordy than that, but basically...).

As to whether or not this country was founded as a Christian nation, something we need to remember is that this country was founded as a federation of states (one reason that the term "national religion" was not used in the first amendment...there was argument over whether the central government was national or federal), with the states having more authority over their doings than the fed. Proof of this is in the treaty of Tripoli, signed in 1797, where they specifically said that the US was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. Rather, it was founded on the principles of liberty - which extend to religious belief.

Becoming a Christian is not something even God forces on us. Government cannot do it,either. But that is what happens in a nation that subscribes to a specific religious belief - even Christianity. Because it is run by fallible man. I believe that God led our founders to give us the best type of government that is available to mankind: one in which Christianity can thrive, and did for so many years. But then Christians began to get comfortable and apathetic. THAT is the real prOBlem with America. If Christians would get right with God, begin to soul win and disciple people and learn the TRUTH about the politics and history of this country, things could really turn around.

[John81]

There was no need for an establishment of a particular denomination or branch of Christianity but Christianity in general could have been the only religion granted liberty.

As many of the Founders pointed out, the Constitution was only suited for a Christian people and the government could only be properly carried on by Christian folk.

Scripture is clear on this as well. Either you plant a good tree and it will bear good fruit or you plant a bad tree and it will bear bad fruit. When man attempts to mix the two the eventual fruit will be bad.

Israel is the perfect, God provided example of what happens to a nation that allows freedom for false religions.

[HappyChristian]

It would not be liberty if there were only one religion, John. Come on - look at history! ALL places where just one religion is/has been allowed have become oppressive - including here in America. And our founders knew that: by personal experience. Please cite where the founders (many of whom were not Christians themselves) expressed that the Constitution was only suited for a Christian people and that the government could only be properly carried on by Christians.

[John81]

It would not be liberty if there were only one religion, John. Come on - look at history! ALL places where just one religion is/has been allowed have become oppressive - including here in America. And our founders knew that: by personal experience. Please cite where the founders (many of whom were not Christians themselves) expressed that the Constitution was only suited for a Christian people and that the government could only be properly carried on by Christians.

No so. Nations with many religions have been oppressive too, which is human sin nature. False religions will naturally lead to bad fruit so that's not even comparative to the idea of a nation seeking to live by the Word of God.

Was Israel under King David an oppressive regime? Are God's plans for how a government should be run and a people should live wrong? Scripture clearly lays out the best form of government is one that acknowledges God and Him alone as Supreme and which follows His laws given for the best means of governing a nation.

[HappyChristian]

No so. Nations with many religions have been oppressive too, which is human sin nature. False religions will naturally lead to bad fruit so that's not even comparative to the idea of a nation seeking to live by the Word of God.

Was Israel under King David an oppressive regime? Are God's plans for how a government should be run and a people should live wrong? Scripture clearly lays out the best form of government is one that acknowledges God and Him alone as Supreme and which follows His laws given for the best means of governing a nation.

God did not allow a theocracy set up here. A theocracy would create false followers: as it did in Israel. And as it will in the Millennial reign: which is why those who aren't true followers of Christ during that time go to war against Him!

Nations that have no set religion do not kill people for not following the state religion. Islam is a good current example of that.

Yes, human nature does lead to oppression often. And in a theocracy it would be even worse.

God's plan for how a government should be run? I don't think He outlines that in scripture. In verses like "happy is that nation whose God is the Lord," I think He's speaking to individual people: when God's people look to Him and follow Him, telling others about Him, that nation is blessed.

Which laws would that nation follow, John? What laws does God ouline for a nation to OBey: other than principles and commands given to INDIVIDUALS? See, therein lies the prOBlem. WHO decides what laws are to be followed? The OT laws? Like the Puritans tried (persecuting all who didn't follow) and the Reconstructionists want (including death, as I've mentioned before, to rebellious children; to those caught in adultery...even though Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery...; to those who decide they don't want to follow that specific religion)? Sorry, but those laws have been done away with. We are not Israel, and God did not intend for us to be.

This country was founded upon the principles of liberty. And I am thankful for that!

[John81]

God did not allow a theocracy set up here. A theocracy would create false followers: as it did in Israel. And as it will in the Millennial reign: which is why those who aren't true followers of Christ during that time go to war against Him!

Nations that have no set religion do not kill people for not following the state religion. Islam is a good current example of that.

Yes, human nature does lead to oppression often. And in a theocracy it would be even worse.

God's plan for how a government should be run? I don't think He outlines that in scripture. In verses like "happy is that nation whose God is the Lord," I think He's speaking to individual people: when God's people look to Him and follow Him, telling others about Him, that nation is blessed.

Which laws would that nation follow, John? What laws does God ouline for a nation to OBey: other than principles and commands given to INDIVIDUALS? See, therein lies the prOBlem. WHO decides what laws are to be followed? The OT laws? Like the Puritans tried (persecuting all who didn't follow) and the Reconstructionists want (including death, as I've mentioned before, to rebellious children; to those caught in adultery...even though Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery...; to those who decide they don't want to follow that specific religion)? Sorry, but those laws have been done away with. We are not Israel, and God did not intend for us to be.

This country was founded upon the principles of liberty. And I am thankful for that!

Are we to persue God and His ways or man's ideas of liberty?

Who said anything about a theocracy?

Read the Old Testament. God set forth the laws a nation is to follow. In reading the Old Testament you will learn that Israel was to be an example for other nations to follow. Other nations were to look to Israel and see the One True God and to see His wisdom in the laws God gave for Israel to live by.

While I admire many of the Founders, they were not perfect and several wrote later in their lives of their failures, of the flaws in the government they had established. These flaws revealed themselves early on and because they were not boldly dealt with and corrected they led to continual prOBlems which were in a matter of decades to wreck the Republic and set it on course to become a tyranical, ungodly empire where the once vaunted "liberty" would be little more than a byword.

Many warned of what was to come if the new nation were built upon the shifting sand and these people were ignored and are mostly forgotten today. What they predicted came to pass and even worse than they had expected.

Is it better to OBey the Word of God or to follow after the ever changing man-made concept of liberty? God is the same today as He was back then while what passes for liberty today would have been viewed as no liberty at all back then. Our Founders made a poor choice.

[HappyChristian]

Well, it's OBvious we aren't going to agree, so I think it's moot to continue responding. I will just say that we are not Israel. The OT laws do not apply to us. We are in the age of grace, whether people like dispensations or not. And our government here in America is set up completely differently than Israel's was. Instead of answering any of my thoughts, you keep harking back to Israel and OT laws as though that is what we are to follow, when it isn't. I'm sorry that you think that God was not moving in America's founding when He gave us this Republic.


Man-made concept of liberty? Right. Okay. 'Nuff said.

[John81]

Well, it's OBvious we aren't going to agree, so I think it's moot to continue responding. I will just say that we are not Israel. The OT laws do not apply to us. We are in the age of grace, whether people like dispensations or not. And our government here in America is set up completely differently than Israel's was. Instead of answering any of my thoughts, you keep harking back to Israel and OT laws as though that is what we are to follow, when it isn't. I'm sorry that you think that God was not moving in America's founding when He gave us this Republic.


Man-made concept of liberty? Right. Okay. 'Nuff said.

We as individuals are under grace with regards to salvation. No doubt about that. This doesn't change the fact God gave us the proper laws and regulations for establishing the most perfect government we can have on earth. Nothing in the NT changes this.

I've never said God wasn't moving in America's founding. God has been moving in the founding of every nation.

Indeed, the man-made concept of liberty. If you search you will see man has many different ideas of what is and isn't liberty as well as to it's worth or lack thereof. None of which comes from Scripture.

Even if we don't agree here, I enjoy "speaking" with you.