Peter Ruckman

[Brother Rick]

Actually I personally see nowhere in Scripture where a person is encouraged to remarry after any situation except the death of a spouse. On the contrary, there is quite a bit of evidence that remarriage after ANY divorce is adultery.

I'd really like to see Biblical evidence for that one.

It happens all the time and I understand that...but that's why God specifically limits Pastors and Deacons to being undivorced men.

That's not what it says.

[Anon]

The Bible is pretty clear that if you divorce and remarry, you have committed adultery.

[trc123]

The Bible is pretty clear that if you divorce and remarry, you have committed adultery.

Kita, Give him the Biblical references and then he can go away................just make sure you give him all of them!

[HappyChristian]

I do believe that God does not like divorce at all. But when Jesus gave what is known as the exception clause: "except if be for fornication," I believe that God granted mercy to the wronged spouse.

If a woman is faithful to her husband, and loves him the way she should but he still runs around on her (and I think we all know people like that...), she is not to blame for his sin. His fornication ended the marriage, and I believe that is in God's eyes. Because marriage is a picture of Christ and the church, fornication (on the part of the man) gives the picture of an unfaithul Christ...and needs to be ended. Now, if the man repents and the wife forgives and they can go on for Christ, wonderful. But too often it doesn't happen that way. And, because of that exception clause, I don't believe God would make a wronged spouse remain single the rest of their life.

However: more than once indicates a major prOBlem on the part of the "wronged" spouse.

And, since the man is to be head of his home, I would hesitate to use a man in my above example. The Bible tells us that we love Christ because He first loved us. If a husband is being truly loving, the way Christ would have him, I think the straying wife would be very rare indeed.

[Anon]

HC I actually personally believe that's Jewish Betrothal...Mary and Joseph being a total picture of that. He was going to put her away and would have been free to marry another had the angel not intervened. Once the union is complete, I believe God does not approve of remarriage even if a separation or divorce is necessary due to abuse or unfaithfulness.

I realize not everyone agrees...but in everything I've read, including some of the passages where Jesus specifically says a man who marries a divorced woman is an adulterer and causes her to commit adultery. (HC knowing your church background I would express some surprise and dismay about some of the beliefs taught in the church there especially in cases of putting the beliefs into practice, but of course everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions)

There is only one word in the entire Bible that can be used to try to back up the idea of remarriage after divorce and its the word "bondage" and I believe that means "bondage" to the marriage vows...NOT "bondage meaning I can't remarry". God never once says its okay to remarry after divorce...as a matter of fact, He kinda encourages widows to stay single if they possibly can, if they have family to take care of them, or if they are very young!!!

God only puts forth two punishments in the NT for adultery/remarriage after divorce. (The divorce is not the adultery...the remarriage is.) 1: You can't be a deacon 2: You can't be a pastor. Its not grounds for church discipline or anything like that (remarriage) but it is losing your opportunity to be called as a pastor or deacon. They are not to be looked down upon, or judged.... but its just the way God set it up. My dad used to be a deacon. My mom died. He remarried a divorced woman. He realized HIMSELF that the Bible removed him from being able to be a deacon. But he still serves in a church faithfully, and helps in Christian counseling, and teaches Sunday School sometimes. But he will not be a pastor or deacon.

Its really pretty simple...

[HappyChristian]

I don't understand what you mean about my church background? Is it the teachings of my church that cause dismay or that I expressed a belief that you don't think my church teaches?

Yes, I've heard people say that's the Jewish betrothal, but I don't agree. If you read the entire chapter of Matthew 19, you will see that Jesus is speaking about more than betrothal.

Jesus plainly and simply says, in verse 9: "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

That "except it be for fornication" comes just before "and shall marry another." I don't believe that Jesus would have included the exception clause if He didn't mean that remarriage was okay. If remarriage at all is wrong, I think He might have said: "Whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another committeth adultery." But He didn't say that: He included the exception.

As to widows: actually, young widows were counselled to remarry and "guide the house" to keep from becoming busybodies and poor testimonies (wild women in today's vernacular).

[Brother Rick]

Okay, here we go again...Bro. Rick, even the secular world recognizes divorce and remarriage as SERIAL POLYGAMY.

I'm a serial cereal eater.

Look, I've never heard anyone say that besides you, the secular world doesn't care if a divorced man preaches or not. "Serial polygamy" is not an idea supported by scripture.

Being married to more than one wife, just not at the same time. I am not one who says that all remarriage after divorce is unscriptural - if the marriage was broken due to fornication, it's broken in God's eyes. Therefore, a remarriage can take place. However, a man needs to step down from the pulpit if he is in such a case BECAUSE OF TESTIMONY SAKE. It's purely pride that keeps a divorced, remarried man in the pulpit.

So it's ok for a man who is scripturally divorced to remarry, but he can't pastor. The Bible doesn't say that.

As far as testimony sake, he took a vote, and 1/3 of the congregation was against it so he resigned. He played it by the book ALOT more than people give him credit for.

As far as his having resigned three times for not managing his household: THREE times he realized he didn't manage his household well and so resigned...sounds like a track record to me. If he was disqualified ONCE for not ruling his house well: HE'S STILL DISQUALIFIED! Getting married again doesn't erase the initial disqualification.

Whoooooaaa..... hold on. So, if a man has prOBlems in his marriage, and then is honorable and humble enough to recognize it and step down, there's never ever a time where he can come back and pastor? Disqualified once.... forever? Where is that in the Bible?

Another qualification is to be blameless: not able to get a handle on the pastor for something (it doesn't mean perfection, else all would be disqualified). Being thrice married, absolutely going against scripture with his abrasiveness (I don't give a fig that he tried to justify it as a way to get people's attention...if that were true, he would have stopped when he had the attention, but he didn't...) towards people who don't agree with him.

Elijah, Peter, Paul, and Jesus were abrasive.

By and large, Dr. Ruckman's abrasiveness is aimed at those who would take the Bible out of our hands and replace it with nothing other than faith in a man. God has blessed him for taking up that banner.

When he is abrasive for other reasons, I don't agree with it. I wouldn't go so far as to go out of my way to say someone is disqualified from the ministry because he's rough around the edges. Like I've said, I don't make a hOBby out of finding out which pastor is qualified and which one isn't. If I don't think a pastor is, I don't join his church.

And sarcasm as regards being thrice married and still in the pulpit doesn't cut it, Rick. He's a poor example of a pastor.

His first church was a disgrace in the community, being well over $300,000 in debt. He got the church out of debt, turned it into an aggressive soul winning church, and got the membership up to 300. I think that's pretty good.

Oh, and when he resigned that church, because they asked him to, it was debt free. It then proceeded to dwindle down to about 30 members and die, after trying many other pastors and kicking them out.

He cannot teach against divorce without being a hypcrite. Oh, sure, he can stand up there and say the Bible says...but he's lost his credibility with that issue.

Are you sure? He never divorced anyone, they divorced him. He tried very hard to reconcile after the divorce, and he stayed single until they remarried.

My personal opinion is that those who remain in the pulpit are filled with pride - as if a church cannot get along without them. When, in actuality, if a person humbly says I am disqualified and steps away from the pulpit, they could have a wonderful NONpastoral ministry.

Believe me, I would never go for marriage counsel to a man who couldn't love his wife enough to help her keep her vows...and more than once!!!!

He's had a wonderful marriage to his third wife for 22 years now, and he's 89 years old. Does that count for anything?

I've been married 7 years, and I'm 30.

You'd listen to me over him?

Do you really think that a pastor my age, or (I can't help but laugh) a pastor, newly married and fresh out of Bible school who's barely legal to drink would understand how to be a good husband better than him? Edited June 14, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Brother Rick]

I don't understand what you mean about my church background? Is it the teachings of my church that cause dismay or that I expressed a belief that you don't think my church teaches?

Yes, I've heard people say that's the Jewish betrothal, but I don't agree. If you read the entire chapter of Matthew 19, you will see that Jesus is speaking about more than betrothal.

Jesus plainly and simply says, in verse 9: "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

That "except it be for fornication" comes just before "and shall marry another." I don't believe that Jesus would have included the exception clause if He didn't mean that remarriage was okay. If remarriage at all is wrong, I think He might have said: "Whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another committeth adultery." But He didn't say that: He included the exception.

As to widows: actually, young widows were counselled to remarry and "guide the house" to keep from becoming busybodies and poor testimonies (wild women in today's vernacular).

I agree, it would be terrible if a man or woman had to deal with the grief of being alone, being cheated on, thier ex-spouse marrying someone else, AND not being able themselves to remarry if they fell in love with someone. This is why Jesus gave offended spouse's an out for the sin of their ex-spouse.

Women cheat on men all the time. Today's culture is wicked. Romance novels and daily afternoon soaps leave women unsatisfied with thier men. Adultery is the spirit of age. Men have to deal with filthy bilboards and trash every where they turn.

[Anon]

My point here, folks, is not trashing divorced ppl...its to say NO PASTOR OR DEACON CAN BE DIVORCED. Period.

Everyone else can do what they like. :-)

Sorry HC for saying that about your church, I had no right to do that.

I will bow out of this discussion now...agreeing to disagree with certain points.

[Brother Rick]

I will bow out of this discussion now...agreeing to disagree with certain points.

I think I'll follow suit.

I don't mind discussing, but arguing and debating is something I'd rather not do. I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's been sucked into doing that a time or two, and it's really not profitable.

He's not my "idol" as someone so tactfully put it, he's not my "mentor" as another one put it, and he's not my pastor. I just can't help but defend someone that I have a lot of respect for, especially when he's called a "whore monger", of all things.

[HappyChristian]

My point here, folks, is not trashing divorced ppl...its to say NO PASTOR OR DEACON CAN BE DIVORCED. Period.

Everyone else can do what they like. :-)

Sorry HC for saying that about your church, I had no right to do that.

I will bow out of this discussion now...agreeing to disagree with certain points.

And I do agree that no pastor or deacon should continue in their office once divorced.

Feel free to pm me....

BroRick: I wouldn't go to counsel for marriage prOBlems to anyone who has been divorced - no matter the age. Call me cuckoo if you want, but I wouldn't. I never said a young man would know more about marriage...and, at 50 years of age, I likely wouldn't go to a young man simply because I've lived longer. Fortunately, I am married to a godly man and we have never needed to go for counseling.

You know, I agree that women are influenced by trashy novels and t.v. and that can lead them to cheat on their husbands. But that is where the man has to be the head of the home. We have never owned a t.v., so it was never a possibility of a prOBlem, but if we did have a t.v., I can guarantee my husband wouldn't allow me to watch soaps even if I were so inclined. And I am a voracious reader...but no trashy romance allowed in our home! If I bring in a book that has a questionable cover, it goes out quickly (no matter the content)...so I don't get books with questionable covers. In other words, I am selective about what I read, and I can honestly say it is most likely due to my husband.

I know serial polygamy is not an idea supported by scripture: God says a pastor is to be the husband of one wife...not one at a time.

No, I don't believe that a man who has been divorced can be a pastor. "husband of one wife" is enough scripture for me. Disqualified is disqualified. I don't see any where in the list where someone can be requalified.

[OFIB Preacher]

Actually I personally see nowhere in Scripture where a person is encouraged to remarry after any situation except the death of a spouse. On the contrary, there is quite a bit of evidence that remarriage after ANY divorce is adultery.

It happens all the time and I understand that...but that's why God specifically limits Pastors and Deacons to being undivorced men.

Exactly!
You hit the nail on the head!
AMEN, Sis!

[OFIB Preacher]

The Bible is pretty clear that if you divorce and remarry, you have committed adultery.

AMEN! THAT'S RIGHT!
I'm hollerin' it!

[OFIB Preacher]

And I do agree that no pastor or deacon should continue in their office once divorced.

Feel free to pm me....

BroRick: I wouldn't go to counsel for marriage prOBlems to anyone who has been divorced - no matter the age. Call me cuckoo if you want, but I wouldn't. I never said a young man would know more about marriage...and, at 50 years of age, I likely wouldn't go to a young man simply because I've lived longer. Fortunately, I am married to a godly man and we have never needed to go for counseling.

You know, I agree that women are influenced by trashy novels and t.v. and that can lead them to cheat on their husbands. But that is where the man has to be the head of the home. We have never owned a t.v., so it was never a possibility of a prOBlem, but if we did have a t.v., I can guarantee my husband wouldn't allow me to watch soaps even if I were so inclined. And I am a voracious reader...but no trashy romance allowed in our home! If I bring in a book that has a questionable cover, it goes out quickly (no matter the content)...so I don't get books with questionable covers. In other words, I am selective about what I read, and I can honestly say it is most likely due to my husband.

I know serial polygamy is not an idea supported by scripture: God says a pastor is to be the husband of one wife...not one at a time.

No, I don't believe that a man who has been divorced can be a pastor. "husband of one wife" is enough scripture for me. Disqualified is disqualified. I don't see any where in the list where someone can be requalified.

Sis, I'm glad to see the strong stand!
Praise the LORD!
AMEN!

[4everHis]

Wondering how many of you have heard the sermon where PR is preaching that abortion is not murder?

I don't care to call out people by name, but seriously, that is beyond the pale. The reason certain people are continually mentioned on threads like these is that these people have information available wherever we go on the web. If Joe Smith from my town USA preaches inaccurately and no one but the people of his church are exposed to it, there would be little value in starting the Joe Smith thread here.

For me, Peter Ruckman is someone who was likely well-intentioned, but did not do well when it came to certain Biblical issues. His divorces, his testimony among the community in which he lived are not things that affect my view. (Although you should know that I am COMPLETELY against a pastor or deacon serving in those positions having had a divorce whether pre or post salvation, whether willingly or unwillingly. Period. End of Sentence.) His divorces are something his church overlooked and his teachings about divorce are the very things that enabled them to overlook the divorces. I did not live in Pensacola, so his testimony did not impact me. However, his teachings came into my home via media. His concept of correcting the TR with the use of the KJ (which came in part from TR) makes not a lick of sense. It defies logic. His claim that certain Bible colleges who did not want his materials at their schools were criminals (that is his exact word, not my characterization) exemplifies a contentiousness that I don't look upon too fondly. (I don't like it when we get into name calling. I can have my own view, I can base it upon Scripture, but I don't need to be ugly about you because you don't agree, even if you may be wrong! ) Here's a quote from his paper, and he has named certain Bible colleges as criminals in the previous sentence (I didn't quote back that far in the article to avoid getting the conversation off track through the defense of either party), Jan 2004:
A criminal (if he can get
away with it) will always remove all evidence of his crime from the “scene” of the crime: Waco, Texas for a prime example.

It is always a mistake for someone to view a person and to validate a person by their works. It is always a mistake to try to justify everything they say as correct. Peter Ruckman might have done many more things for Christ than me. He might be a better person than me. However, based upon Scripture, he is incorrect on issues of pastoral authority, abortion and the Bible. JMHO, so take it or leave it.

Edited June 16, 2010 by 4everHis