Discussion Topic - Can Lying Or Stealing Ever Be Acceptable?

[Alimantado]

Thank you for clarifying. Certainly the Lord has blessed me with "greater wisdom" now than what I had back in 1981 when I first came to Christ. We are told in James to pray for wisdom and this is something I have done many times. That said, the "wisdom" I do have is from God and not from my own head or some university degree. Without the Holy Ghost I would be as lost in the Scripture as I once was.

The word "kill" is a broad term which encompasses everything from outright killing someone because you didn't like them to killing someone who jumps out in front of your car as you drive down the road.

I apologize for not putting forth the specific verses. I have very little room here so it's time consuming and difficult to try and find the verses and I don't want to guide someone to one book when I should have said another. The laws I was speaking of are in one of the books of Moses and in the book of Joshua we see where God guided them to set up the cities of refuge so those who killed by accident could have a safe place to stay until the judges could rule.

Clear verses have been posted which address the sin of telling a lie. We are told not to lie, that God considers lying to be an abomination and that Satan is the father of lies. No stories of how someone told a lie and yet God still blessed them or still used them changes the clear command of God. God has blessed and used murderers, adulterers, and other sinners but this does not commend their sins or make their sins okay.

In the case of killing it's God Himself who clarifies what this means and sets forth the law for such Himself. In the case of telling lies, God says all lies are sin and sets forth no commands that exempt certain lies.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

"Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are His delight." Proverbs 12:22

"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent," Proverbs 6:16,17

Thanks for taking time to respond, John. Good points.

[rancher824]

Let me try to clarify my feelings on Daniel. I look at it from the view of a contractor. I hire men and tell them exactly what I want them to do and how I want it done (Dan. 1:5) One of those at the bottom of the chain of command feels my way goes against code. To take care of it honestly would be to come to me and point out code and say he will follow code or suffer the consequences. But instead he goes to my second in command (Dan 1:8) and says he wants to do it his way. My second in command says if he allows it done other than the way I said it would cause him to be fired (1:10 only executed in the actual case). That I said how I wanted HIM to do it (not given as a general order but the prince says "your"). So rather than quit, he goes on down the chain and asks another to get him the supplies (Pulse and water 1:11) and let him do it his way, and when I saw how it turned out I would be happy. So the two must sneak around to do it without being caught (10 days). Now actually I see in this that A: by going about sneaking to do against the bosses direct order that at least the supervisor would be lying by acting as if he is following orders. He knew what he was doing. But Daniel would have been guilty by requesting such. B: The king owned Daniel (he was a captive, was not free, basically a slave) Melzar was a employee of some sort of the king. Any other time that a employee would use the bosses money to buy something to use against what the boss says to do would be accused of stealing. His jOB was to feed them the food the king commanded. He was taking pay (of some sort whether monetary or as a slave housing) to do a jOB he was not doing. And Daniel requested him to do so. C: In other cases it is being said a lack of faith. Would Daniel not have shown more faith if he had just refused to eat and faced the consequences? The three were ready to face the fire. Why was not them and Daniel about the food. Now it seems I am argueing against myself, or that I am condeming Daniel. I am not, I am trying to say that you must weigh some things in the balance. Daniel knew he was asking someone to sneak around and do things we would not call honest if we were on the kings side of things.

Another direction to consider takes us back to Exodus. Though I feel the Midwives basically answer our question, I know that is not accepted. So lets look farther into the book. Later in Moses life. Lets stop for a moment at the burning bush. What did God tell Moses to go and do?? Lead the children out of Egypt. To where? The land of the Canaanites, Etc (Exodus 3:17). Now Moving forward, What did Moses tell Pharoah? Let us go THREE DAYS JOURNEY into the wilderness. He does not say let us go free. He says a three day journey. I do not find anywhere (I could have missed it, I am open to being shown wrong) that Moses tells Pharoah to let them go free. Simply let them go after saying THREE DAYS JOURNEY. Was Moses being honest. He knew God had commanded him to lead them to freedom, not simply three days into the wilderness. We see Pharoah wanting them to leave things behind to insure they would come back, afraid they would flee. He was not understanding it as setting them free. We can then move on to Exodus 14:5 and find what I was always taught was Pharoah changing his mind, but if you read it carefully it begins by saying "And it was told the king of Egypt that the people FLED" He became angry because he thought they were going where? THREE DAYS JOURNEY, and discovered that they "FLED". Moses was not honest with him. Now did Moses lie???

Now lets back up to Exodus 12:35. They did as Moses told them to do, and they BORROWED from the egyptians. now what does borrowed mean?? Websters 1828 says" Taken by consent of another, to be returned or its equivalent in kind; copies; assumed". Verse 36 goes on to say the egyptians "LENT" unto them. Now if the were going three days journey and then returning, this would work out as true and honest. It would make since that the egyptians would be willing to loan. But if they were leaving to never come back, who would loan on such terms??? Also, we say that to borrow without any plan to return is stealing, do we not. I believe you would find both lying and stealing in this one act. Verse 36 finishes by saying the spoiled the egyptians.

[Anon]

Another AWESOME and well thought out post, Rancher.

I wanted to clarify too that anytime we see any dishonesty we are dealing with GOD'S ENEMIES. I really believe in some cases, very few...but yet there are a few....that God allows things "outside the box" when dealing with His enemies/wartime. We are not sitting here saying its okay to go lie to our pastor...we see clearly by An. and Sapphira that its a no-no among many other verses.

NOBody has proven quite yet why "thou shalt not kill" doesn't count in wartime but "thou shalt not lie" is in force at all times.

Seems like a few posters think we are sitting here justifying sin...nope...not at all! Just saying that in some cases...its not even considered "sin" to be justified!

[John81]

I spoke to our pastor and our pastor of education this morning (separately) about this and both turned to the same passages clearly showing all lies are sin and there are no exceptions. Both pointed out that neither Rahab nor the midwives were commended for their lies because lying is a sin and abomination unto the Lord, but rather they were commended for their faith in God. Both were shocked to learn it was mostly Baptists saying that a lie could ever not be a sin.

In any event, if the very clear verses on lying don't convince anyone then nothing will, but I will post the following which I found today as I was catching up on the news.


Thursday, April 8, 2010
May We Do Evil That Good May Come?

It is an age-old hypothetical (for many of us) ethical dilemma wrapped up in 20th century context: If I was living in Nazi Germany, and hiding a Jew or a Christian whose life was in danger, and the Nazis came to my door and asked point-blank if I was hiding such a one, and to answer yes would be to presumably sentence that one to death, while to answer no, would risk my own life, and involve me in a violation of the ninth commandment, what should I do?

I have culled a few relevant responses from Puritan divines to this question, who draw upon the cases of Rahab the harlot and the Hebrew midwives of Egypt, in discussing whether such a lie uttered for the greater good of saving a life may be justified. May we indeed do evil that good may come?

Richard Baxter, A Christian Directory, p. 360:



Quest. II. 'Is it not contrary to the light of nature, to suffer e. g. a parent, a king, myself, my country, rather to be destroyed, than to save them by a harmless lie?'


Answ. No. Because, 1. Particular good must give place to common. And if once a lie may pass for lawful in cases where it seemeth to be good, it will overthrow human converse, and debauch man's nature and the world.

2. And if one evil may be made a means for good, it will infer that other may be so too, and so will confound good and evil, and leave vicious man to take all for good which he thinks will do good. That is not to be called a harmless lie, which is simply evil, being against the law of God, against the order of nature, the use of human faculties, and the interest and converse of the sociable world.

3. The error of the OBjectors chiefly consisteth in thinking that nothing is further hurtful and morally evil, than as it doth hurt to some men in corporal respects. Whereas that is evil, which is against the universal rule of rectitude, against the will of God, and against the nature and perfection of the agent; much more if it also tend to the hurt of other men's souls, by giving them an example of sinning.

4. And though there may sometimes be some human prOBability of euch a thing, yet there is no certainty that ever it will so fall out, that a lie shall save the life of king, parent, or yourselves. For God can open the eyes of that enemy whom you think to blind by a lie, and cause him to know all the truth, and so take away that life, which you thought thus to have saved.

5. And there are lawful means enough to save your lives when it is best for you to save them. That is, OBey God, and trust him with your lives, and he can save them without a lie, if it be best: and if it be not, it should not be desired.

6. And if men did not erroneously overvalue life, they would not think that a lie were necessary for it. When it is not necessary to live, it is not necessary to lie for life. But thus one sin brings on another: when carnal men overvalue life itself, and set more by it than by the fruition of God in the glory of heaven, they must needs then overvalue any means which seemeth necessary to preserve it. See JOB xiii. 7—10; Prov. xiii. 17; Rom. vi. 15; iii. 7—9; Psal. v. 7; Hos. iv. 2; John viii. 44; Rev. xxi. 27; xxii. 15; Col. iii. 9; 1 John ii. 21.

7. Yet as to the degree of evil in the sin, I easily grant (with Augustine, Enchirid.) that Multum interest quo animo et de quibus quisque mentiatur: non enim ita peccat qui consulendi, quomodo ille qui nocendi voluntate mentitur: nee tantum nocet qui viatorem mentiendo in adversum iter mittit, quantum is qui viam vitae mendacio fallente depravat.


OBject. 'Are not the midwives rewarded by God for saving the Israelitish children by a lie?'


Answ. I need not say with Austin, "The fact was rewarded, and the lie pardoned;" for there is no such thing as a lie found in them. Who can doubt but that God could strengthen the Israelitish women to be delivered without the midwives? And who can doubt but when the midwives had made known the king's murderous command, that the women would delay to send for the midwives, till, by the help of each other, the children were secured? Which yet is imputed to the midwives, because they confederated with them, and delayed to that end. So that here is a dissembling and concealing part of the truth, but here is no lie that can be proved.

OBject. ''But Heb. xi. 31., and James ii. 25., Rahab is said to be justified by faith and works, when she saved the spies by a lie.'

Answ. It is uncertain whether it was a lie, or only an equivocation, and whether her words were not true of some other men that had been her guests. But suppose them a lie, (as is most like,) the Scripture no more justifieth her lie, than her having been a harlot. It is her believing in the God of Israel, whose works she mentioned, that she is commended for, together with the saving of the spies with the hazard of her own life. And it is no wonder if such a woman in Jericho had not yet learned the sinfulness of such a lie as that.


OBject. 'But at least it could be no mortal sin, because Heb. xi. 31., and James ii. 25., say she was justified.'


Answ. It was no mortal sin in her, (that is, a sin which proveth one in a state of death,) because it had not those evils that make sin mortal: but a lie in one that doth it knowingly, for want of such a predominancy of the authority and love of God in the soul, as should prevail against the contrary motives habitually, is a mortal sin, of an ungodly person. It is pernicious falsehood and soul delusion in those teachers, that make poor sinners think that it is the smallness of the outward act or hurt of sin alone, that will prove it to be, as they call it, venial, or mortified, and not mortal.



Thomas Ridgeley, A Body of Divinity (repub. as Commentary on the Larger Catechism), Vol. 2, p. 407:


Another inquiry is, what judgment we must pass concerning the actions of Rahab, the harlot, who invented an officious lie, to save the spies from those who pursued them. It is said, 'she took two men and hid men:'y and, at the same time, pretended to those who were sent to inquire of her concerning them, that 'she wist not whence they were,' but that they 'went out of the city about the time of the shutting of the gate, though whither they went she knew not.' The main difficulty we have to solve is what the apostle says in apparent commendation of this action, 'By faith Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies in peace,' that is, she protected them, and did not betray them into the hand of their enemies. But this act of faith does not relate directly to the lie which she invented to conceal them; for, doubtless, she would have been more clear from the guilt of sin, had she refused to give the messengers any answer relating to them, and so had given them leave to search for them, and left the event to providence. This, indeed, was a very difficult duty; for it might have endangered her life; and her choosing to secure them and herself, by inventing this lie, brought with it a degree of guilt, and was an evidence of the weakness of her faith. But, on the other hand, that faith which the apostle commends in her, respects some other circumstances attending this action. Accordingly, it is not said that by faith she made the report to the messengers concerning the spies, but, that 'by faith she received them with peace.' Now, there are several things in which her faith was very remarkable. She was confident that 'the Lord would give them the land' which they were contending for.a She makes a just inference relating to this matter, from the wonders which God had wrought for them in the Red sea.b She makes a nOBle confession, that 'the Lord their God is God in heaven above, and in the earth beneath.'c She put herself under the protection of the Israelites, and desired to take her lot with them; and she did this at the hazard of her life, though she might have saved it, and prOBably have received a reward, had she betrayed them. This I conceived to be a better vindication of of Rahab's conduct than that which is alleged by some, who suppose that, by entering into confederacy with the spies, she put herself into a state of war with her own countrymen, and so was not OBligated to speak truth to the men of Jericho. Such an interpretation is followed by many ill consequences, and gives too much countenance to persons deceiving others, under pretence of being in a state of war with them. As to what the Papists say in her vindication, that a good design will justify a bad action; this is not true in fact, and therefore not to be applied to her case.


Thomas Boston, An Illustration of the Doctrines of the Christian Religion (repub. as Commentary on the Shorter Catechism), Vol. 2, pp. 261-262 [on the sixth commandment]:


Hence it is evident, that a person may not tell a lie, nor do any sinful thing whatever, far less blaspheme, deny Christ or any of his truths, commit adultery or steal, though his own life, or the life of others, may be lying upon it. For where the choice is, suffer or sin, God requires and calls us in that case to suffer. And therefore, the example of such things in the saints, as in Isaac, Rahab, &c. are no more propounded for our imitation, than David's murder, &c. Peter's denial of Christ, &c. And though we read not of reproofs given in some such cases, that will no more infer God's apprOBation of them than that of Lot's incest, for which we read of no reproof given him. The general law against such things does sufficiently condemn them, in whomsoever they are found.

OBject. This is a hard saying. A man may be in the power of some ruffian, that will require on pain of death some sinful thing; and must one sell his life at such a cheap rate, as to refuse to deny his religion, drink drunk with him, or do any such thing for the time:

Ans. It is no more hard than that, Luke xiv.26. 'If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.' We must love God more than our own or other's life, and so must not redeem it by offending God. Sin ruins the soul; therefore says our Lord, Matth. x.28. 'Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'


Fisher's Catechism Q. 78 [on the ninth commandment]:



Q. 12. What is it for a person to make an officious lie?

A. It is to tell a downright untruth, for their own, or their neighbour's safety and security in time of danger, as Rahab did who hid the spies in the roof of her house, and yet alleged they were gone out of the city, and that she knew not where they went, Josh. 2:4-6.

Q. 13. Does not the apostle ascribe this action of hers to her faith, when he says, Heb. 11:31 -- "By faith, Rahab, the harlot, perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace?"

A. No; What he ascribes to her faith is, her having received the spies with peace, that is, her having consulted their safety and preservation with the greatest care and diligence; but not the lie she invented in order to conceal them. Her protecting the spies is commended, but not the manner in which she did it.

Q. 14. Who are they that plead in favour of officious lies?

A. The Papists, Socinians, and most of our modern moralists.

Q. 15. What arguments do they allege in defence of this sort of lying?

A. That it has been practised by saints in scripture; and that it is so far from being hurtful to any, that it has been beneficial to some in certain cases.

Q. 16. What answer is to be given to the practice of the saints in this matter?

A. That their sinful failures, in this and other instances, are not recorded in scripture for imitation, but for caution and warning, that we fall not into the same snares.

Q. 17. How do you answer the other argument for officious lying, "That it is so far from being hurtful to any, that it has been beneficial and advantageous to some, in certain cases, particularly in saving the life of a dear friend, or useful member of society, which might otherwise have been manifestly endangered?"

A. It is answered thus, that in no case are we to do evil that good may come, Rom. 3:8. If we are not to speak wickedly for God, nor talk deceitfully for him, according to JOB 13:7, neither are we to do so, though it were for the benefit of all mankind, or the best among them.

[Revelation3:20]

Revelation, My intent it, its never right to do wrong to do right. And that God is very clear about His feelings towards lying, He is against it.

Abram is a very good example of that with his half lie, it clearly showed that he lacked faith in God, and it cause much trouble in Pharaohs house. And what a sight, Pharaoh gave Abram quite a talking to about having lied to him. What a shame God's child gets preached to by and unsaved man about all the trouble his lying caused him, that means Abram witness was very poor that day. Can't say more right now, got to get to bed.

Annie, If you kill someone in self defense, its not murder, and its not held against you.

God even had cities of refuge, do a study on them.

Yet, that's really off topic, why not start another topic on that issue?

I think your evading the question. I asked you a direct question and you give only ambiguous answers that no one is disagreeing with.

For a scriptural example that it is ok to deceive and mislead people in certain serious situations you need look no farther than this passage. See what God himself directed Samuel to do? Mislead Saul so Saul wouldn't kill him.

" 1 Samuel 16 1-5 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD. And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee. And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably? And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice." Edited April 18, 2010 by Revelation3:20

[John81]

I think your evading the question. I asked you a direct question and you give only ambiguous answers that no one is disagreeing with.

For a scriptural example that it is ok to deceive and mislead people in certain serious situations you need look no farther than this passage. See what God himself directed Samuel to do? Mislead Saul so Saul wouldn't kill him.

" 1 Samuel 16 1-5 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD. And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee. And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably? And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice."

No lie involved. There was a sacrifice to be held where Samuel was to annoint the son of Jesse God would show Samuel and the people were invited.

For God to say...

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

"Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are His delight." Proverbs 12:22

"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent," Proverbs 6:16,17

...and then to say it's okay to lie sometimes and to believe God would reward a lie would be to make God Himself a liar! Scripture tells us that God is not like man that He would lie!

Do you not see the argument you are using is the same argument used for those who proclaim women can be preachers and hold positions of authority in the church?

Scripture could not be any clearer that to lie is to sin; no exceptions. This is just as clear, perhaps even clearer, than the command that women are not be pastors or hold positions of authority over men in the church.

Scripture shows us the good, bad and ugly of the charactors presented within its pages. All that these people do are not as examples to follow but as examples of how weak, fallen man is. We are also given picture after picture of God's wonderful mercy and grace as He yet loves us, uses us and blesses despite the fact we sin.

We should all know from our own lives that sometimes sins we commit don't have any OBvious repercussions but others reap a bad harvest and some bring about attention getting punishment. The same is true of those we see in Scripture. As well, Scripture doesn't delve into every aspect and detail of every individual mentioned. We can't use charactor stories from Scripture or outside of Scripture to overturn the clear Word of God.

Either Gods Word is true that all liars are sinners and lies are sin or Gods Word is not true if there are exceptions to these clear statements from God that God didn't tell us about.

We as Christians should never be looking to our own methods to solve a prOBlem or to "help God". Our God is capable of closing or opening the eyes of any enemy we face. Our God is capable of giving us the victory in any circumstance we face without anything from us beyond our complete faith and trust in Him.

[Anon]

What if maybe all this is semantics and what Rahab did, God didn't consider it a "lie"? Or what the midwives did...maybe God didn't consider them "lies"?

[John81]

What if maybe all this is semantics and what Rahab did, God didn't consider it a "lie"? Or what the midwives did...maybe God didn't consider them "lies"?

A lie is a lie. For God not to consider a lie a lie would be for God to be unstable.

God is very clear and direct. God doesn't equivocate and God doesn't say a lie sometimes becomes a nonlie. God is faithful and just and could not say a lie isn't a lie.

[Anon]

All I'm saying is this:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, saith the LORD; neither are my ways, your ways..." (quoted from memory so may be wrong)

[Revelation3:20]

No lie involved. There was a sacrifice to be held where Samuel was to annoint the son of Jesse God would show Samuel and the people were invited.

For God to say...

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

"Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are His delight." Proverbs 12:22

"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent," Proverbs 6:16,17

...and then to say it's okay to lie sometimes and to believe God would reward a lie would be to make God Himself a liar! Scripture tells us that God is not like man that He would lie!

Do you not see the argument you are using is the same argument used for those who proclaim women can be preachers and hold positions of authority in the church?

Scripture could not be any clearer that to lie is to sin; no exceptions. This is just as clear, perhaps even clearer, than the command that women are not be pastors or hold positions of authority over men in the church.

Scripture shows us the good, bad and ugly of the charactors presented within its pages. All that these people do are not as examples to follow but as examples of how weak, fallen man is. We are also given picture after picture of God's wonderful mercy and grace as He yet loves us, uses us and blesses despite the fact we sin.

We should all know from our own lives that sometimes sins we commit don't have any OBvious repercussions but others reap a bad harvest and some bring about attention getting punishment. The same is true of those we see in Scripture. As well, Scripture doesn't delve into every aspect and detail of every individual mentioned. We can't use charactor stories from Scripture or outside of Scripture to overturn the clear Word of God.

Either Gods Word is true that all liars are sinners and lies are sin or Gods Word is not true if there are exceptions to these clear statements from God that God didn't tell us about.

We as Christians should never be looking to our own methods to solve a prOBlem or to "help God". Our God is capable of closing or opening the eyes of any enemy we face. Our God is capable of giving us the victory in any circumstance we face without anything from us beyond our complete faith and trust in Him.

Look at two more biblical examples in the life of Elisha then.

"2 Kings 8:7-15 And Elisha came to Damascus; and Benhadad the king of Syria was sick; and it was told him, saying, The man of God is come hither. And the king said unto Hazael, Take a present in thine hand, and go, meet the man of God, and inquire of the LORD by him, saying, Shall I recover of this disease? So Hazael went to meet him, and took a present with him, even of every good thing of Damascus, forty camels burden, and came and stood before him, and said, Thy son Benhadad king of Syria hath sent me to thee, saying, Shall I recover of this disease? And Elisha said unto him, Go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the LORD hath shewed me that he shall surely die. And he settled his countenance stedfastly, until he was ashamed: and the man of God wept. And Hazael said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Hazael said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Elisha answered, The LORD hath shewed me that thou shalt be king over Syria. So he departed from Elisha, and came to his master; who said to him, What said Elisha to thee? And he answered, He told me that thou shouldest surely recover. And it came to pass on the morrow, that he took a thick cloth, and dipped it in water, and spread it on his face, so that he died: and Hazael reigned in his stead."

Elisha instructs Hazael to tell the syrian king that he would recover, yet he knew he was going to die. At very best Elisha is instructing Hazael to be tricky and misleading, at worst he is telling him to lie.

"2 Kings 6:15-19 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria."

Here Elisha lies during a time of war to the men God has stricken with blindness at his request. There is no indication from the context that he was wrong to do so.

[JerryNumbers]

I think your evading the question. I asked you a direct question and you give only ambiguous answers that no one is disagreeing with.

For a scriptural example that it is ok to deceive and mislead people in certain serious situations you need look no farther than this passage. See what God himself directed Samuel to do? Mislead Saul so Saul wouldn't kill him.

" 1 Samuel 16 1-5 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD. And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee. And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably? And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice."

No, I did not evade the question. Its quite clear, we can conclude from God's Word that lying is a sin.

Also, if a Holy God awarded a lie, sin, He would no longer be holy.

The only place that a lie can be made to be OK, is in the human mind, and that has been done by several under this topic.

Plus, I made it clear, I feel 100% that anyone who thinks they have to tell a lie, is not trusting God, but the lie they've hatched up.

I have given Holy Scriptures, all of them are very clear about God's thoughts towards a liar.

[John81]

All I'm saying is this:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, saith the LORD; neither are my ways, your ways..." (quoted from memory so may be wrong)

God has told us His way regarding lying. He views all lies as an abominable sin. The verse you are referring to is partly to remind us that when we try to think around Gods clear Word that we must remember His was are not our ways and that His ways are always the right ways.

[John81]

I'm sorry to have to say this but if some refuse to accept the very clear statements from God Himself that lies are a sin of abomination in His eyes and that all liars are sinners then it's time to remove myself from this topic.

[JerryNumbers]

I'm sorry to have to say this but if some refuse to accept the very clear statements from God Himself that lies are a sin of abomination in His eyes and that all liars are sinners then it's time to remove myself from this topic.

[Crushmaster]

Alright, the discussion is closed. Thank you for everyone who participated. If you want to add any final thoughts, you may, but please be respectful. Do not post it if you do not think the Lord would want you to.

God bless,
Joel.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Crushmaster