A few questions on predestination

[JerryNumbers]

Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism

by Curtis Hutson

[anime4christ]

Kind of off topic, but some dude on facebook has been busy all day yesterday and today calling me a false teacher, heretic, snake, viper, and every other nice word he could find in the Bible because I agree with Calvinism (note that I don't know much of what Calvin himself actually taught, but many people call me a Calvinist because I came to an understanding of Scripture that is identical to some form of Calvinism on my own). The funny thing is that in his pages that he likes are at least 10 people or organizations that are Calvinistic.

[John81]

Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism

by Curtis Hutson

Some of what Hutson says is true but not all who call themselves Calvinists, or even those called Calvinists by others, believe as Hutson says. Not all Calvinists agree with these definitions of TULIP.

The few Calvinists I know personally view perseverance of the saints to simply mean that a true Christian will fight the good fight, run the race to win; not give up and go back to the world.

[John81]

Kind of off topic, but some dude on facebook has been busy all day yesterday and today calling me a false teacher, heretic, snake, viper, and every other nice word he could find in the Bible because I agree with Calvinism (note that I don't know much of what Calvin himself actually taught, but many people call me a Calvinist because I came to an understanding of Scripture that is identical to some form of Calvinism on my own). The funny thing is that in his pages that he likes are at least 10 people or organizations that are Calvinistic.

It's a shame, but it's rather common for many professing Christians to attack like that. It's also interesting how many who oppose Calvinism do themselves quote from and promote many Calvinists...some even quote Calvin himself where they agree with him.

[Reformation Man35]

The few I know who call themselves Calvinists have said this. I've also read something, I can't recall if it was Spurgeon or another, who said this and proclaimed this is why the Gospel must be preached.

There are differences among some Calvinists because while some believe preaching the Gospel is necessary and important, there are others who believe such isn't necessary because those God has chosen will come to Him anyway and it's a waste of time to preach the Gospel to everyone else.

These are called hyper calvinists. In almost all doctrine, there are those who swing the pendulum either to far to the left or right. They have no balance. Fatalist is what I believe you call it.

[heartstrings]

Some of what Hutson says is true but not all who call themselves Calvinists, or even those called Calvinists by others, believe as Hutson says. Not all Calvinists agree with these definitions of TULIP.

The few Calvinists I know personally view perseverance of the saints to simply mean that a true Christian will fight the good fight, run the race to win; not give up and go back to the world.

I think Curtis Hutson acknowledged that.........

The term "Calvinism" is loosely used by some people who do not hold Calvin's teaching on predestination and do not understand exactly what Calvin taught.

and.........

I have heard preachers say, "I am a one-point Calvinist."

I have heard others say, "I am a two- or three-point Calvinist."

[heartstrings]

It's a shame, but it's rather common for many professing Christians to attack like that. It's also interesting how many who oppose Calvinism do themselves quote from and promote many Calvinists...some even quote Calvin himself where they agree with him.

Is reproof considered an "attack"? Pro 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
Proverbs 10:17 Proverbs 12:1 Proverbs 13:8 I think if I was promoting false doctrine, I would want somebody to WARN me wouldn't you? Because if you are promoting a false doctrine like Calvinism, you are in very grave danger my friends.
And I promise you that I will not promote anyone who is a known Calvinist.

[John81]

Is reproof considered an "attack"? Pro 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
Proverbs 10:17 Proverbs 12:1 Proverbs 13:8 I think if I was promoting false doctrine, I would want somebody to WARN me wouldn't you? Because if you are promoting a false doctrine like Calvinism, you are in very grave danger my friends.
And I promise you that I will not promote anyone who is a known Calvinist.

There is a vast difference between brotherly reproof and self-righteous nastiness.

I'm all for warning others if they are in error and I'm all for being pointed in the right direction if I'm off course but there is no need for nastiness or an attack-attitude when this is done. Such should be done in meekness and love.

[anime4christ]

Well, tell me if this is attack or reproof:

Now do you realize the danger that Mr. Aleksey is placing people into when he is telling them straight out lies?

Do you remember when Jesus said that it would be better for someone to place a millstone around their neck and throw themselves into the water if they have deceived one of the small ones?

Alex, bro, there are people seeing the truth on these posts and someone like Mr. Aleksey is coming and telling them straight, outright lies! And when confronted, he denies of any wrongdoing by saying, "I'm not an authority on this subject" [note: I never actually said anything like that] but is he an authority to lie to people? Because that is something that is happening when people read these posts!

I mean, one thing he goes to hell for this, but that's him, but another, is when he convinces many to come with him...that's where it gets scary!

Alex, bro, I plead with you to understand because its a matter of life and death for some here and imagine if someone is putting their faith into Calvin because of Mr. Aleksey's teachings!

All is Christ!

And then later he said this about himself:

Alex,
Yes, I am an expert and an authority on Holy Divine Scripture of my God Almighty and my Abba Father Who is Holy Holy Holy!!!

Yes, Lord Jesus Christ lives inside of me and inspires me!

Yes, I know 100% what apostle Jude was trying to say!

No, I'm not following Jesus Christ anymore because there is no more "I" in me but "He" Who lives though me!

Yes, I know that not all on this post are believers, hence this is why I treat different people here differently as Jesus did!

Yes, I know that some are not brothers and need to repent and put their trust in Jesus and His New Covenant that He has brought with His blood and not just simply alter their "theology a little bit" because they are completely lost like the "pharisees" and are going straight to hell without recourse.

Alex, do you really want me to be quiet about that, when they are going to hell?

Do you really want me to be really quiet and tell your little boy quietly to alter his route a little bit when he is going on the train tracks, while the train is heading right behind him at the speed of light? Do you really want me to act like that with your boy, Alex?!

Alex is a friend who stood up for me and the guy responded by calling me Alex's "little boy". I don't know what you think, but I can just feel the love radiating from his posts. lol

[Invicta]

Does anyone not agree with the perseverance of the saints? John 3:16. Can everlasting life mean we can be lost? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[JerryNumbers]

Does anyone not agree with the perseverance of the saints? John 3:16. Can everlasting life mean we can be lost? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

No, we cannot keep ourself saved, God keeps us saved.

[JerryNumbers]

Is reproof considered an "attack"? Pro 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
Proverbs 10:17 Proverbs 12:1 Proverbs 13:8 I think if I was promoting false doctrine, I would want somebody to WARN me wouldn't you? Because if you are promoting a false doctrine like Calvinism, you are in very grave danger my friends.
And I promise you that I will not promote anyone who is a known Calvinist.

heartstrings, Good question. I find that many times when to try and correct someone one, reproof someone, it matters not how you do it, its taken as hateful and not showing no love. Even to the point just because you disagree with some, they will claim your hateful and mean spirited.

Seems we are in a day were many expect you to practice tolerance, and show complete acceptance.

I mentioned this under another topic. Yesterday on Fox News a liberal for not reason except the conservative disagreed with her, called him a vulgar name and said he ought to stop being so hateful.

I will add this for the sake of the thought that people might quote Calvin who disagree with him on this issue. Even though Calvin is 100 % wrong on this issue, there be issues that he is 100% right about.

[anime4christ]

So, um, it seems to me that we've danced by this one issue but nOBody wanted to mention it explicitly: Do some people here really believe that Calvinists are unsaved, killing evangelism, and leading people to hell? Because the guy "reproving" me believes exactly that, and it seems some here almost agree with him, but don't state it very OBviously. So, I just want to get a straight up answer to this. Do some here truly believe that (automatically applying that to me as well) or did I get the wrong message?

[John81]

Sovereign Grace And Man's Responsibility

A Sermon (0207)
Delivered on Sabbath Morning, August 1st, 1858, by
the REV C H SPURGEON

The entire sermon is at the link. This sermon clearly explains Spurgeons views on salvation as well as his understanding of "true" Calvinism vs other forms. Worth the time to read.

Looking forward to your comments after you read this sermon.

http://www.apibs.org/chs/0207.htm

[heartstrings]

Sovereign Grace And Man's Responsibility

A Sermon (0207)
Delivered on Sabbath Morning, August 1st, 1858, by
the REV C H SPURGEON

The entire sermon is at the link. This sermon clearly explains Spurgeons views on salvation as well as his understanding of "true" Calvinism vs other forms. Worth the time to read.

Looking forward to your comments after you read this sermon.

http://www.apibs.org/chs/0207.htm

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

God truly foreKNOWS everything. He KNOWS everything that will happen because He is the Omniscient God who "inhabiteth eternity": but He does NOT "foreORDAIN" everything. Maybe this is too hard for many to grasp. Calvinists seem to think that since God KNOWS what's going to happen in the future, He surely had to have planned that future event in order to do so. Now if God FOREORDAINED that John81 would burn in Hell for all eternity for God's glory, then why would God go against His own will?....
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I have now, I think, stated the doctrine pretty plainly. Let me only say a few words about it. Some people are very much afraid of this truth. They say, "It is true, I dare say, but still you ought not to preach it before a mixed assembly; it is very well for the comfort of God's people, but it is to be very carefully handled, and not to be publicly preached upon." Very well, sir, I leave you to settle that matter with my Master. He gave me this great book to preach from, and I cannot preach from anything else. If he has put anything in it you think is not fit, go and complain to him, and not to me. I am simply his servant, and if his errand that I am to tell is OBjectionable, I cannot help it. If I send my servant to the door with a message, and he delivers it faithfully, he does not deserve to be scolded. Let me have the blame, not the servant. So I say; blame my Master, and not me, for I do but proclaim his message. "No," says one, "it is not to be preached." But it is to be preached. Every word of God is given by inspiration, and it is profitable for some good end. Does not the Bible say so?

Use one scripture at the beginning of a sermon, then 'expound' upon it with your own perception of it(in this case, false)then claim that the misinterpretation that you have just proclaimed was "the word of God"....and tell people to "take it up with God". I've heard that one before. A commonly used ploy to make it all sound legitimate.