A few questions on predestination

[John81]

"Calvinism", or "doctrines of grace", is basically the belief that before you were born, God ordained your destiny for heaven or hell. Calvin may not have come up with the "Tulip" acronym, but it is the same heresy; it just outlines it in more detail.

I understand that part. What I'm wondering is who actually came up with TULIP itself; not the foundation it was built upon.

One of the reasons I'm wondering is because I've heard differing "Calvinists" arguing among themselves that Calvin wouldn't have agreed with TULIP. I'm wondering why some would believe that.

[JerryNumbers]

The Deadly TULIP
By Ron Boatwright

"The many errors promoted by the deadly TULIP theology in religion have led many people away from the truth of God’s word. This system is deadly because it changes the means by which God saves man. The system is also known as "Calvinism" because John Calvin in the 1500’s was credited with developing it. Calvin did not originally develop the system, but Augustine of Hyppo in the fifth century came up with this false doctrine. Agustine tried in vain to live a celibate life but because of his many sexual and other sins he concluded that man was totally depraved from birth. Since he chose to lead a sinful lifestyle he tried to justify himself by developing a theology to substantiate it.

John Calvin took Agustine’s theory and developed it into a system of five cardinal points that is defined by the word TULIP. There is no connection with the flower, but all five points are contrary and contradictory to God’s plan of salvation in the Bible. Calvin’s five cardinal points are: T= Total Depravity, U= Unconditional Election, L= Limited Atonement, I= Irresistible Grace, P= Perseverance Of The Saints. All five points of Calvin’s theory either stand or fall together."

[John81]

Thank you Jerry. I thought I read or heard some mention before about Augustine being a "Calvinist" before Calvin. I see these two came up with what would eventually be put forth using the TULIP acronym but wasn't it someone after Calvin who actually put it together into that acroynym?

[Pastor Matt]

It is safe to say that Calvin believes in what today is called T.U.L.I.P.

[heartstrings]

Thank you Jerry. I thought I read or heard some mention before about Augustine being a "Calvinist" before Calvin. I see these two came up with what would eventually be put forth using the TULIP acronym but wasn't it someone after Calvin who actually put it together into that acroynym?

According to this, http://www.theopedia.com/TULIP the "five points" were "codified" by the "Synod of Dort"......

TULIP......an acronym used to summarize the Five Points of Calvinism, which were codified in the Canons of Dort by the Synod of Dort in 1618 and 1619, which met to address the points raised by the Arminians of that day.

...and the acronym was made from them later.....

History of TULIP
There is no certainty regarding the origin of the acronym TULIP. However, the five points of Calvinism were discussed, as such, before the popular rise of this acronym, for example in R. L. Dabney's work, The Five Points of Calvinism, circa 1878. Dabney's five headings are total depravity, effectual calling, God's election, particular redemption, and perseverance of the saints.[1]

The earliest use of TULIP in this regard appears to be in 1905 by Rev. Cleland Boyd McAfee, in a lecture before the Presbyterian Union, Newark, NJ, as recorded by William H. Vail, writing in The New Outlook (1913).[2]

The popular use of TULIP as a teaching device was stimulated by Loraine Boettner in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination first published in 1932.[3]

Edited April 26, 2010 by heartstrings

[Invicta]

The Deadly TULIP
By Ron Boatwright

"The many errors promoted by the deadly TULIP theology in religion have led many people away from the truth of God’s word. This system is deadly because it changes the means by which God saves man. The system is also known as "Calvinism" because John Calvin in the 1500’s was credited with developing it. Calvin did not originally develop the system, but Augustine of Hyppo in the fifth century came up with this false doctrine. Agustine tried in vain to live a celibate life but because of his many sexual and other sins he concluded that man was totally depraved from birth. Since he chose to lead a sinful lifestyle he tried to justify himself by developing a theology to substantiate it.

John Calvin took Agustine’s theory and developed it into a system of five cardinal points that is defined by the word TULIP. There is no connection with the flower, but all five points are contrary and contradictory to God’s plan of salvation in the Bible. Calvin’s five cardinal points are: T= Total Depravity, U= Unconditional Election, L= Limited Atonement, I= Irresistible Grace, P= Perseverance Of The Saints. All five points of Calvin’s theory either stand or fall together."

Let us take the first point first.

Are you saying that man is not totally depraved by the fall? If not in what way?

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; How short of the glory of God did we fall if not totally?

[JerryNumbers]

Let us take the first point first.

Are you saying that man is not totally depraved by the fall? If not in what way?

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; How short of the glory of God did we fall if not totally?

What I'm saying, and have been saying, it that the TULIP Doctrine is not no the Bible, its deadly. I have never said that Romans 3:23 is false. Yet the way the Calvinist state it, its 100% wrong.

[Pastor Matt]

Total Depravity is often misunderstood. I think we all can agree on a total depravity, but by being totally depraved does not mean one is totally hopeless.

[John81]

According to this, http://www.theopedia.com/TULIP the "five points" were "codified" by the "Synod of Dort"......



...and the acronym was made from them later.....

Thank you! This information is helpful.

[John81]

Total Depravity is often misunderstood. I think we all can agree on a total depravity, but by being totally depraved does not mean one is totally hopeless.

I'm not sure what you mean by "totally hopeless".

[DennisD]

I'm not sure what you mean by "totally hopeless".

If Jesus Christ hadn't died for our sins and rose again we would be totally helpless. Without salvation we'd be totally helpless because no one can keep the law.

[John81]

Absolutely, without Christ we would all be hopeless. It seemed something else was possibly implied.

[heartstrings]

I think what he means is;
We are all depraved and DEAD in trespasses and sins but God has given us all the ability to respond to the Gospel........

Notice that Lazarus was completely DEAD, but when Jesus(The Word) spoke the words "Lazarus come forth" it was powerful enough for Lazarus to hear, but Lazarus still had to OBEY. By comparison, when a spiritually dead sinner hears the quick(ALIVE) and powerful Word of God, he can not only hear, but he has the option to respond or not, in his heart, to the Gospel and be saved. Whether you want to take that as a comparison or not, Jesus is still speaking to DEAD people(sinners) today.


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Once again, Felix heard the word of God spoken to his heart, and Felix trembled in fear because it was affecting him. But Felix said NO....I'll do it later. It was like God was saying "Felix, come forth"; but Felix would not come forth.

[Reformation Man35]

TULIP or no TULIP, the doctrine of predestination has been around forever. Not only calvin but many other founders of the faith held to a doctrine of predestination. Either you hold to election or you don't. Or, you are somewhere in the middle unsure of what you believe.

[heartstrings]

TULIP or no TULIP, the doctrine of predestination has been around forever. Not only calvin but many other founders of the faith held to a doctrine of predestination. Either you hold to election or you don't. Or, you are somewhere in the middle unsure of what you believe.

The Devil has been around since the dawn of time too, Calvin was not a "founder of the faith", and I wouldn't care if John Calvin came back from the dead and showed up on my doorstep sporting wings and a halo.....
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Both election and predestination are biblical doctrines; the only prOBlem is, they do not mean what the Calvinists say they mean. Edited April 27, 2010 by heartstrings