A few questions on predestination

[holster]

Am 2:13 Behold, I am pressed under you, as a cart is pressed that is full of sheaves.

[Psalms18_28]

So is Fred Phelps saved? Afterall, his view of God leans toward calvinism. So does it make him more likely saved because of his interpretation?

[JerryNumbers]

There may be some who proclaim there is no free will, though I haven't noticed that here.

God can allow free will and still be in full control. God knows everyone will sin yet He sometimes chooses to limit the sins we can commit. Just because God causes one would be rapist to break his leg and thus end his spree, God also chooses to allow another to continue for a time. God doesn't cause the rapist to rape but that rapist can't rape unless God allows it for His own reasons that we may not be able to grasp.

Scripture declares that nothing happens without God either directly causing it or allowing it. Nothing.

For a human persepctive consider how a parent can prevent their child from falling when they are learning to walk. The parent can hold the child, hover over the child and make sure the child can't get up if he isn't there. However, don't parents generally eventually allow their child to walk on their own even though they know the child will fall and sometimes might even get a boo-boo? The parent could have prevented the child from falling and getting a boo-boo but the parent chose to allow the child to fall yet the parent didn't cause the child to fall. Through it all, the parent was in control.

Regarding TULIP, I know of many who call themselves Calvinist but don't hold to TULIP. At the same time, I've know many who hold to different interpretations of TULIP.

I know they are out there, but I've never personally met a Calvinist who doesn't believe in preaching the Gospel and witnessing.

An invitation is a churches choice. If a person is coming to Christ the Holy Ghost can bring them in without someone issueing and invitation. Most often, in the churches I attended where invitations were given, a few of those already saved would go forward (often the same ones) and nOBody else, service after service.

Have you even read the post under this topic? If so, you surely missed some important points.

[Reformation Man35]

Like I said before, humanistic theology always wants prideful man in control. It is clear that after the fall of adam mans will isn't "free". Paul clearly tells us that those who are not redeemed are slaves to sin. Clearly look that up in Romans. As far as the assumption that reformed theology suggests that God makes people sin is clearly due to the lack of study. Man is always going to choose sin over righteousness apart from the saving work of the Holy Spirit. That is clear as a bell in the scriptures. If God left man alone to ourselves and our "free" will, we would be nothing more than another Sodem and Gomora. It is also clear that God is restraining the will of man by not letting him be as depraved as we could be. Read 2nd Thessalonians and you can clearly see God restraining and even sending a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.

[heartstrings]

Like I said before, humanistic theology always wants prideful man in control.

Through man's pride, comes religion Romans 10:3

It is clear that after the fall of adam mans will isn't "free".

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! The word "would" is a form of the word "will". It means "they did not want to".

Paul clearly tells us that those who are not redeemed are slaves to sin. Clearly look that up in Romans..

Yes, and when a slave is offered freedom, he has the ability to say "yes" or "no".

As far as the assumption that reformed theology suggests that God makes people sin is clearly due to the lack of study.

No, reformed theology suggests that God created sin itself.

Man is always going to choose sin over righteousness apart from the saving work of the Holy Spirit. That is clear as a bell in the scriptures.

True, but a man can choose Jesus if he's confronted with his own sin, the righteousness of God, the righteous judgement of God ...and that is also clear in the scriptures.

If God left man alone to ourselves and our "free" will, we would be nothing more than another Sodem and Gomora.

Correct, this is why He gave us the Gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.

It is also clear that God is restraining the will of man by not letting him be as depraved as we could be.

Absolutely not. God gave us the law. If you disOBey the speed limit, you can get a ticket. But people choose to disOBey anyway. Law is a restrainer, but it cannot restrain the will.

Read 2nd Thessalonians and you can clearly see God restraining and even sending a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.

Now back up one verse and se WHY he sent 'strong delusion'(deception}....because they received not the love of the truth. It was their choice, my friend. They were free to trust Christ or reject Him.

[JerryNumbers]

Through man's pride, comes religion Romans 10:3





Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! The word "would" is a form of the word "will". It means "they did not want to".


Yes, and when a slave is offered freedom, he has the ability to say "yes" or "no".

No, reformed theology suggests that God created sin itself.


True, but a man can choose Jesus if he's confronted with his own sin, the righteousness of God, the righteous judgement of God ...and that is also clear in the scriptures.


Correct, this is why He gave us the Gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.


Absolutely not. God gave us the law. If you disOBey the speed limit, you can get a ticket. But people choose to disOBey anyway. Law is a restrainer, but it cannot restrain the will.

Now back up one verse and se WHY he sent 'strong delusion'(deception}....because they received not the love of the truth. It was their choice, my friend. They were free to trust Christ or reject Him.

But it seems he totally disagrees with true Bible teachings of which you proclaimed.

[JerryNumbers]

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest OBey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to JacOB, to give them.
Deut 30:15-20 (KJV)

Amazing isn't it, God's giving them a choice, of course, God wants them to chose life, not death.

We still have that choice, we can chose life and good, or death and evil.

[John81]

So is Fred Phelps saved? Afterall, his view of God leans toward calvinism. So does it make him more likely saved because of his interpretation?

Fred Phelps does not exhibit signs, or fruit, that would suggest he is saved. No matter whether one leans towards Calvinism or any other "ism", they are saved or lost based upon whether they have been biblically born again or not.

[Reformation Man35]

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest OBey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to JacOB, to give them.
Deut 30:15-20 (KJV)

Amazing isn't it, God's giving them a choice, of course, God wants them to chose life, not death.

We still have that choice, we can chose life and good, or death and evil.

1 CORIN. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So explain to me your excellency, Paul tells us that the unsaved man can not receiveth the things of the Spirit because they are foolishness to him. How is it then that he would chooseth anything godly?

[heartstrings]

1 CORIN. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So explain to me your excellency, Paul tells us that the unsaved man can not receiveth the things of the Spirit because they are foolishness to him. How is it then that he would chooseth anything godly?

I Corinthians 2:14, in context, is speaking to carnal Christians. All saved people STILL have the old nature "the natural man", and the old nature cannot understand spiritual things. Read the first part of the very next chapter. A lost person, only has the "natural man" the old nature, but even a lost person can respond to the wooing of the Holy Ghost, and the power of the Gospel.

Once again, I'll use Felix for an example.
He was convicted of sin, righteousness and judgement by the Holy Ghost, so much so that Felix "trembled"....Felix was given the light of the Gospel, but Felix chose to put it off. The natural man truly cannot recieve the things of God. But he can say yes or no to the Gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Ghost.

[Reformation Man35]

I Corinthians 2:14, in context, is speaking to carnal Christians.

Well I have to disagree with you on your context suggestion. Paul is in clear comparison with the spiritual man and the unsaved man. He gives that comparison in vs 12 stating that we have not recieved the spirit of th world, but the Spirit of God.

[heartstrings]

The old nature, "the natural man", which lives in EVERY person, saved or lost, cannot receive the things of God....it has no spiritual discernment.

The context of i Corinthians 2 is speaking to carnal Christians and, like I said, Felix only had the "natural man"; Felix was a lost person. But Felix was directly confronted with the power of the Gospel and convicted by the Holy Spirit....Felix was shown light, he was so convicted that he trembled., but he chose to put it off.

1 Corinthians 3 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

[Reformation Man35]

ame='Reformation Man35' date='29 March 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1269882663' post='238927']


The old nature, "the natural man", which lives in EVERY person, saved or lost, cannot receive the things of God....it has no spiritual discernment.

The context of i Corinthians 2 is speaking to carnal Christians and, like I said, Felix only had the "natural man"; Felix was a lost person. But Felix was directly confronted with the power of the Gospel and convicted by the Holy Spirit....Felix was shown light, he was so convicted that he trembled., but he chose to put it off.

1 Corinthians 3 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Ok, thank you for your opinion on that verse.

[JerryNumbers]

Of course the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. But the only reason man is in the natural state is because he personally rejects Jesus, its not that God does not give him a choice. God gives everyone a choice, and if they reject Jesus as Savior, and one day find their self in hell, they can blames no one but self. For God has been in the past, is in the present time, and will be longsuffering until Jesus comes.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That is gives man many opportunities to turn to Christ and be saved. He does not want a single man to perish, Jesus stands at the heart of every man and knocks, if only they would open their heart to Him, yet He will not enter uninvited.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If he would only accept Jesus as Savior, them the Holy Spirit would enter him, and set up adOBe within him. For you see, God & Jesus has much respect for us, even though many of us show no respect for God & Jesus. God provided the path to salvation to all men, His grace unto salvation has appeared to all men.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Sad, the majority of men reject the one and only true Savior.

By the way, the Bible is correct.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, that very clearly means any and or all men. Its each persons own fault if they do not have the Savior.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That time is here, whosoever shall call upon Lord Jesus will be saved, as before stated, many refuse, many reject, but their rejection of the Savior is their very own choice, God has done everything possible outside of forcing, that He will not do.

Its all very simple, yet so many men complicate it, with doctrine of man, but those who choose doctrine of men, they worship God in vain.


Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

[Invicta]

John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Yes and No man means No Man That doctrine was no more popular in Jesus' day than it is today.