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Live4Him

Saved or Savable?

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Relevant questions are:
  • is everyone, or anyone, in a savable condition without the working of the Holy Spirit?
  • What is the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation?
  • Is repentance/faith in Christ/new birth a work of God in man, or a work of man?
  • Is the Gospel a free offer to everyone - take it or leave it by our will - or a command to repent & believe that is made possible by the working of the Holy Spirit?






Answering your questions as best I can


#1 Jesus said "and I if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me"


#2 Jesus said that the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) would reprove the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. I think "the world" means every one will be reproved don't you? The Bible also says all are "without excuse"


#3 Simple faith in your heart, when you simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in faith and repentence, is not a WORK at all! It takes no action, no sweat, no words, no physical "doing" of anything. The Bible says "with the HEART man believeth unto righteousness".....The WORK is all done by God from the work of Christm to the preaching of the Gospel to the wooing of the Holy Ghost. The Bible says "only believe"...you just have to believe on the right one....the Lord Jesus Christ


#4 This one has been answered, in the responses above.

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Wow, Covenanter, not only do you miss the boat when it comes to Bible prophecy, but you try to tell us Calvinism is Biblical. Not unless it is Biblical to rip passages out of context and redefine some terms so that they mean something other than the passage indicates.

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I would like to believe like you guys do, but how can you explain passages like Romans 9?


I was under the impression that you did.......

According to the Reformed doctrine of grace, limited atonement, it's possible. But that's my biggest contention with Calvinism--I just can't accept that I was born saved...........

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I was under the impression that you did.......



I reject the limited atonement and the belief that the elect have always been saved.

I would like to be able to reject all of it, but Romans 9 seems to support it.

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I reject the limited atonement and the belief that the elect have always been saved.

I would like to be able to reject all of it, but Romans 9 seems to support it.


Did not God choose Abraham over everyone else in the world.

Did he not choose JacOB over Essau?

Did he not choose Samson for his task?

Did he not choose Jeremiah from the womb? Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Did he not choose Cyrus to do his will over 100 years before he was born?

Did he not choose John the Baptist?

Did he not open the heart of Lydia? Ac 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Did he not choose Israel over all the Nations?

What makes us different?

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Did not God choose ...


God also chose Egypt, the Babylonians, Romans, Joseph, Mary, and Judas. All the folks you've listed and these listed here were chosen for specific tasks. It doesn't mean they were all saved.

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How can I explain John 6 (esp. 37, 39, 44, 65)? I know that Christ's being lifted up (on the cross) is the Father's way of drawing people, but who are the ones the Father gives to Jesus?

Thanks. :)

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John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

but who are the ones the Father gives to Jesus?

All those that will come to Him through Christ.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the OBtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is offered to all, but all will not receive it. Those that do so are placed in Christ - and in effect, are given to Christ.

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John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

but who are the ones the Father gives to Jesus?

All those that will come to Him through Christ.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the OBtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is offered to all, but all will not receive it. Those that do so are placed in Christ - and in effect, are given to Christ.

I see. Thank you!

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Thank you, guys, for your patience with me as I try to shed my Calvinistic thinking! :)

What do you guys think about this. Is an unsaved person so lost in his sin that's he unable to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Does the Holy Spirit have to deal with him before he's able to accept it? Or is he completely responsible for either accepting or rejecting the Gospel? If the Spirit is necessary to open a person's mind to the Gospel, does He deal with everyone?

Furthermore, is an unsaved person able to choose to do good? What do we mean when we say someone is "dead in his sins"?

I tend to think the Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity (or at least, as I understand it) is in error, and the story of Cornelius in the book of Acts seems to oppose it. Cornelius, who had not yet received Christ as Savior is described thusly: "He was a devout man and feared God."

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Man can respond, accepting Christ as Savior, rejecting Christ as Savior, & or putting it off. Seems the latter is what Felix did.

Ac 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Of course the Holy Spirit does draw one to Christ.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Albert Barnes says this about John 12:32.

Verse 32. Be lifted up. See Joh 3:14; 8:28.

Will draw. Joh 6:44. The same word is used in both places.

All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross, so that all men may come. I will provide a way which shall present a strong motive or inducement--the strongest that can be presented--to all men to come to me.

{g} "lifted up" Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

{h} "will draw all men" Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

As previously discusses, sad to say, Calvinist teach that some people cannot be saved, of course that contradicts the Bible as has already been pointed out.

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Thank you, guys, for your patience with me as I try to shed my Calvinistic thinking! :)

What do you guys think about this. Is an unsaved person so lost in his sin that's he unable to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Does the Holy Spirit have to deal with him before he's able to accept it? Or is he completely responsible for either accepting or rejecting the Gospel? If the Spirit is necessary to open a person's mind to the Gospel, does He deal with everyone?


Yes the Holy Spirit must work in a mans heart before he can accept the gospel. John 6:44 teaches that man could not come to God without God's drawing but John 12:32 and John 1:9 shows that God draws and gives light to every man at some point. The draw can be resisted and the light rejected though. The Holy Spirit will not always strive with man.

Furthermore, is an unsaved person able to choose to do good? What do we mean when we say someone is "dead in his sins"?


"Good" needs to be defined. God says even the plowing of the wicked is sin so no they can't please God while unsaved but they do have a choice about to what extent they sin. The lost can certainly do things that appear good things in our eyes but if they reject Christ every attempt they make at good is but filthy rags in the sight of God.

I tend to think the Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity (or at least, as I understand it) is in error, and the story of Cornelius in the book of Acts seems to oppose it. Cornelius, who had not yet received Christ as Savior is described thusly: "He was a devout man and feared God."


Depending on how total depravity is defined I disagree with it too. Still, I am not sure Cornelius would be the best proof against it. He was at a crossover time between the old and the new testaments. If he had lived an hundred years earlier I believe he would have gone to paradise in the same way that OT saints went to paradise. Jesus specifically mentioned in Matthew 8:10-12 that many would come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham Issac and JacOB in the kingdom of heaven. In context he is speaking of OT gentiles not part of Israel but who had faith in God in the same way Abraham did. In life Abraham didn't receive Christ directly, only in a figure, but he believed God and would have received Christ had he been around at the time of Christs coming. His faith, that he believed God, was imputed unto him for righteousness. Given what the scripture records about Cornelius I am sure the same would have been true for him had he lived in a different time and place where it was not possible for him to hear the gospel. He lived at the right time and it was possible for him to hear the gospel so he needed to get saved though.

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2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

On the unsaved doing good, of course they can, but they're doing good under their own power, the child of God has a helper, the Holy Spirit, which I think of as a supernatural strength enabler.


Perhaps this might explain it.

Years ago my pastor worked with a coC pastor. The coC pastor said, "If I believed that I could not lose my salvation as you do, I would go out and do all those things I want to do."

My pastor asked him, "What things?"

The coC pastor replied, "You know, get drunk, chase women, you know, have a big party time."

My pastor replied, "Yes, but if you would accept Jesus as your Savior, them the Holy Spirit would take up residence in you, and you would be a new man, with new desires, then you would not want to do those sort of things, you would want to do that which pleases God and Jesus whom you will love with all your heart, all you soul, all your might.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have hear from the beginning, ye should walk in.

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All those under the law (before Jesus died and rose again) still needed to be saved by faith. Cornelius feared God - but he did not know Him yet - he did not have faith in the coming Messiah. He sought to do good and turn away from his sins - as I did before I knew the Gospel - but without faith in the Saviour/Messiah, it was not enough.

Yes, man is depraved, but with the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting and enlightening work of the Holy Spirit, man can respond to the Gospel and be saved. Calvinism teaches that man must first be regenerated to be able to respond - whereas the Bible teaches man is born again (ie. regenerated) once he receives the Gospel.

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