What can you do?

[bzmomo7]

I agree. But I think they are already past that point or else he wouldn't be confiding in me. I think she simply doesn't believe in God (although she claimed to be a Christian up until this happened) and knows that she can't be forced to believe in him, nor attend his church. And he said that its not just their Church, (she refused to go to a relative's baptism at another Church as well), so I doubt it is really church related. Let's assume that he has carefully explained authority to her and that she still says, "that's fine, I'll respect you and do what you tell me, other than going to Church." What then? You can imagine how helpless he feels. I think the girl has realized that there is only so much her parents can make her do and she isn't going to do anything that she doesn't want anymore.

From this last description, Pt, I agree with the above sentence in pink, except that from the girl's perspective I would change the words "can do" to "will do". She has found a weakness in her parents and now she knows they aren't as tough as she'd thought. Remember, she isn't very old yet, what will happen when she is 16? The tough stuff and drawing boundaries is just beginning. Others might think it is not possible to re-draw boundaries about family church attendance and such with this girl, but I for one, sure would try. Tell him not to give up on her! If she says, "that's fine, I'll respect you and do what you tell me, other than going to Church." Than I would challenge her that she is not really respecting him. She is picking and choosing what she wants to OBey. What will be next? Ask her, will she say to the police officer who pulls her over for speeding, "I OBey all the other traffic laws, so what's the big deal?" No, you OBey the rules or you pay the consequences. There can even be consequences to being rude to a police officer and being sassy to him aren't there? This young lady needs to think about authority and how her parents are bound under much authority, rules, laws and the like. Adults are not free to do anything they want! Sometimes kids get these weird notions in their head that we can do ANYTHING--not so! As Kita said in an earlier post, I would back this stuff up with consequences, but I would do so only after we've had a long (or a couple) long talks. I would even consider compromising with this young lady if she has been out of church for a long length of time with some sort of agreement in writing (signed by both parties) that she will WILLINGLY attend church with the family, and respect her father's authority in OBedience in exchange for some priviledge or the taking away of such priviledge if she does not. Is this bribery? It doesn't have to be. Children who are growing up and acting like responsible young men and ladies ought to earn more priviledges as they demonstrate more mature qualities. Perhaps it could be pitched that once this young lady demonstrates the "maturity" necessary that certain priviledges shall be granted. I don't know what that might be for their family, but surely they could come up with something that is eyebrow raising to a teenage girl that is not going to compound the prOBlem. Could I ask this young ladies first name? I'd like to add her to my prayer list.

[ptwild]

Not that I know for sure, but I think this child is a little too mature to be tricked with circular reasoning. By that, I mean that she is fully aware that just because she doesn't have to go to church does not mean that she has full unchecked freedom (I base this on the fact that she has been otherwise respectful to her parents). She's also prOBably old enough to realize that she has a freedome of religion that not even her parents can infring upon if she refuses to let them. Looks to me that she's figured a few things out a little early and the only thing left to do is pray and continue to instill her with Christian values. Her name is Mary.

I tried to look at things from her point of view and even pictured myself at that age. I never lost my faith and never refused to attend Church (I did get into arguments with my parents and was disresptful at times), but looking back, I guess there is nothing my parents could have done to make me go to Church if I didn't want to. I was already living a thousand miles away from my folks at 14, and if I would have refused to attend Church, or even daily chapel, I would have been expelled. And although my parents couldn't force me to do what I didn't want to do, they would have tanned my hide for blowing a $30k a year education.

[bzmomo7]

Not that I know for sure, but I think this child is a little too mature to be tricked with circular reasoning. By that, I mean that she is fully aware that just because she doesn't have to go to church does not mean that she has full unchecked freedom (I base this on the fact that she has been otherwise respectful to her parents). She's also prOBably old enough to realize that she has a freedome of religion that not even her parents can infring upon if she refuses to let them. Looks to me that she's figured a few things out a little early and the only thing left to do is pray and continue to instill her with Christian values. Her name is Mary.

I tried to look at things from her point of view and even pictured myself at that age. I never lost my faith and never refused to attend Church (I did get into arguments with my parents and was disresptful at times), but looking back, I guess there is nothing my parents could have done to make me go to Church if I didn't want to. I was already living a thousand miles away from my folks at 14, and if I would have refused to attend Church, or even daily chapel, I would have been expelled. And although my parents couldn't force me to do what I didn't want to do, they would have tanned my hide for blowing a $30k a year education.

I think your first paragraph is correct. I would think she is fully aware of her parents predicament as well....as far as not being able to make her accept their faith; however, I wondered if maybe she thinks her parents haven't conceded that fact, and maybe she believes that they are trying to force her to believe something against her will. If that is the case, perhaps she could accept attending church soley as an act of OBedience to her father if her parents acknowledged that she has her own free will of acceptance or rejection of the faith without fear of being unloved by them. Their love, as the love of the Father is, should be understood as completely unconditional. If I were her parent, I would try to remove the religion aspect from the arguement if possible and focus in on the OBedience/respect of authority issue if I wanted her to continue church attendance/participation. After all, pt, it was the authority issue that likely kept you in check when you were away from home. You went to church because it was required or you'd face expulsion. Like I said before, to let her continue to choose to stay home against what her parents wishes are would be to let her choose what she wants to OBey and what she doesn't. This attitude could spill over into other areas later, especially when boys enter the picture--if they haven't already. It sounds like it is going to be a toughie, and I don't envy her parents. I will pray for Mary.......keep us updated, will you?

[Anon]

I would actually have someone watch the house during church...OR have a parent stay home one Sunday and see what happens. I'm the suspicious type but sometimes I wonder if there is something going on..a boyfriend or ???? that she is refusing to attend church because its the only time she can be home alone to do whatever?

I'd be checking the computer history and cookies and phone logs and everything...at the very least. Seriously.

[John81]

The rebellion can't go unchecked. Even if she's "the same" in other areas, if this rebellion stands it's only a matter of time before it grows.

The girl should not be allowed to stay home alone during church. If various punishments won't get her to OBey then at the least she should be forced to sit with a babysitter; either one of the parents or a very trusted adult. During church time she should have to sit in the same room with the parent/babysitter without entertainment.

She should have all priviliges revoked until the rebellion comes to an end.

[Anon]

I totally agree....the worst thing that can be done is to allow her free reign of the house while the parents are gone.

[ptwild]

I know that my friend has stayed home with her sometimes (don't know how often), but I really don't think there is anything else going on. They are fairly strict as far as entertainment goes (the only tv in the house is in the parent's bedroom and the parents only share the internet with the kids for academic purposes). Plus, they have grounded her (don't know exactly what that entails but I'm fairly certain its severe) for the episode when he tried to physically force her to go. I think I've done all I can for them - even sent him a link to a fantastic all girls school in New England that I think might just be the trick.

As far as my own experience, I don't think it was authority that kept me in line when I was away from home. It was the Church. If the Church says you go to communion and you don't go, then you have rebelled against the Church , not your parents, which in Anglicanism, is far worse. Of course, it prOBably didn't hurt that I was fully aware of what would happen to me if word got back to my parents that I was not behaving properly.

[ptwild]

The rebellion can't go unchecked. Even if she's "the same" in other areas, if this rebellion stands it's only a matter of time before it grows.

The girl should not be allowed to stay home alone during church. If various punishments won't get her to OBey then at the least she should be forced to sit with a babysitter; either one of the parents or a very trusted adult. During church time she should have to sit in the same room with the parent/babysitter without entertainment.

She should have all priviliges revoked until the rebellion comes to an end.

This is what I was thinking to. But if they can't make her go to Church, then how can they revoke privileges? If they say "you can't leave the house" and she refuses to listen, do they just lock her up in the attic or something? I'm so glad I'm not having to deal with this.

[Invicta]

I would say that one parent should always stay at home with her.

When we used to have foster children, although they came from non christian families. Some always came to church, some sometimes did and others did not. My wife and I took it in turns to stay at home.

We once had two lads whose mother was a JW and social workers said "There is no question of them going to church." When the first Sunday came, the boys said: Can we come to church with you?" We only had them for two or three weeks but they came to church each Sunday.

[Anon]

I don't think staying home on a regular basis is good...that way the child wins and the parents lose. Why should the child dictate what goes on every week?

Its a tough situation. I would just tell the kid that legally they really shouldn't be leaving her home alone because its not safe and its not taking proper care of her...so she has to come. She can sit out in the lOBby if she hates the preaching that badly but she's not staying home alone.

[JerryNumbers]

I might add, when I got to not wanting to attend church, I had a father who did not go to church, so I felt I could do as he did. Mother would not have that, and I went, after arriving at church, on the way home I was always glad I went.

But having a father that did not go was a big stumbling block for me as a teenager.

I know now days, many parents think they should let their children do as they want to, that is wrong, we get that idea not where in the Bible, that is from man and our modern day psychology.

Punishment, yes, punishment is in order, not to punish her if a failure to follow God's teachings and they may well forever lose her to the world. If they lose her to the world by while doing the right thing, them at least it will not be their fault, having done what was right.

24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Prov 13:24 (KJV)

18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Prov 19:18 (KJV)

15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Prov 22:15 (KJV)

17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.

Prov 29:17 (KJV)

God chastens His children, so us chastening our children is endorsed by God, with this young girl punishment is in order, I can't imagine anyone who believes the Bible declaring no punishment.

Unless something on the lines of what Mitch suggested has took place, but that should quickly be investigated them the proper steps should be taken quickly before its everlasting to late and or as long as she lives under their roof.

To me it sound like a perfect case of rebellion, if she gets by with this, if they let her get by with it, that will be no help in her future.

[John81]

This is what I was thinking to. But if they can't make her go to Church, then how can they revoke privileges? If they say "you can't leave the house" and she refuses to listen, do they just lock her up in the attic or something? I'm so glad I'm not having to deal with this.

It should be made very clear that either she complies with her parents or she can no longer live there. If the parents are unable to get her to comply using appropriate correction methods then she needs to be sent somewhere.

[ptwild]

I don't think staying home on a regular basis is good...that way the child wins and the parents lose. Why should the child dictate what goes on every week?

Its a tough situation. I would just tell the kid that legally they really shouldn't be leaving her home alone because its not safe and its not taking proper care of her...so she has to come. She can sit out in the lOBby if she hates the preaching that badly but she's not staying home alone.

What happens when she says, "no, I will not be going to church with you. I am going to stay here. You can punish, and that's fine, but I'm not going to church." ? Because I get the impression that this is how it is with my friend.

[ptwild]

I might add, when I got to not wanting to attend church, I had a father who did not go to church, so I felt I could do as he did. Mother would not have that, and I went, after arriving at church, on the way home I was always glad I went.

But having a father that did not go was a big stumbling block for me as a teenager.

I know now days, many parents think they should let their children do as they want to, that is wrong, we get that idea not where in the Bible, that is from man and our modern day psychology.

Punishment, yes, punishment is in order, not to punish her if a failure to follow God's teachings and they may well forever lose her to the world. If they lose her to the world by while doing the right thing, them at least it will not be their fault, having done what was right.

24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Prov 13:24 (KJV)

18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Prov 19:18 (KJV)

15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Prov 22:15 (KJV)

17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.

Prov 29:17 (KJV)

God chastens His children, so us chastening our children is endorsed by God, with this young girl punishment is in order, I can't imagine anyone who believes the Bible declaring no punishment.

Unless something on the lines of what Mitch suggested has took place, but that should quickly be investigated them the proper steps should be taken quickly before its everlasting to late and or as long as she lives under their roof.

To me it sound like a perfect case of rebellion, if she gets by with this, if they let her get by with it, that will be no help in her future.

I don't think they are letting her get away with anything. It's as if she is immune their punishments.

[Anon]

I tend to agree with John...if she refuses to comply she is refusing to be a part of the family in that area and they may want to allow her to choose (since she likes choices so well) to remain at home or go to a girls home.