Raising children

[tired]

There is much truth to that.

[HappyChristian]

I have yet to meet a child who strayed that their parents "raised biblically" without obvious flaws. Certainly, children will leave the fold from time to time (as we all have), but they won't completely turn from God in their life if they are raised according to God's word. But parents will claim that they did a good job and their child just messed up. Sorry, I've never yet seen a situation where that is actually the truth. Parents just don't want to take responsibility.

God Bless,

Futurehope

Boy, do I agree with this, Future!!!

It seems that more and more children of Christians are turning their backs on God today, and the excuse is given that "we did the best we could, but they chose..." Maybe that's the problem - the "we." Without the grace of God that has been mentioned, nobody can rear godly kids. But if the precepts of scripture are obeyed - not just as "do this, do that," but allowing them to work in the hearts of parents as well, then Prov. 22:6 is indeed a promise - a promise that parents can look to and praise the Lord about!

Yes, rearing children is burdensome. That's a fact. I had many burdens on me when my son was little. I have different ones now that he is 21. Do I resent that, or feel enslaved? No! I rejoice in my motherhood, and in the fact that God allowed me to be used to teach and train that fellow.

I personally think too many people have swallowed the idea that parents can train their kids, but, hey, who knows how they will turn out. And from whence did this come? "Spiritual leaders" who let their homes go to pot, and then used the excuse that they did the best they could.

To each of you who have children that are still young - God has laid out precepts for child-rearing in His Word. If those precepts are followed, godly children will result. That's been proven time and time again. When do they not result? When scripture is not followed. Period.

Yes, we all have free will. But one of the jobs of the parent is to conquer the child's will, to bend that will into submission to Almighty God. THEN godly children will result.

Each one of us can do that. God never gives us a responsibility that He doesn't think we can handle...in obedience to Him. Parental mistakes? Of course - we are all human. But GOD is able. And if we obey Him, He is able to do "exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us." Talk about freeing us up!!!!!!!!

[John81]

I disagree, at least to some extent, and maybe it's not even that we disagree. I just want to make it very clear that God's word cannot lie and it says:

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

This is simple cause and effect - or is it? I prefer to call it "command and promise" or "sowing and reaping". The fact is, if parents do everything right, their children will serve God and accept His salvation.

I just don't like to hear people place it all on the child and not accept their mistakes that they have made (because we all have) as parents. And our mistakes DO affect our children's decisions in life.

God Bless,

Futurehope

The way I've heard preachers explain it is something like a parent can train a child biblically but if that child rejects the training the child himself has removed himself from any aspect of promise the verse contains.

This doesn't put all the blame on the child or on the parents. It takes both. The parents are commanded to do their part but the child also has to do their part. If either fails then the child isn't truly biblicaly trained in the way he should go.

No parent who just sits back and lets his child go or perhaps enforces some biblical rules but ignores many others can rightly say they have properly trained their child and regardless of how "difficult" that child may be they can't say it's all the childs fault when they embrace the world.

In the same way, if the parents give diligent effort to properly train their child yet the child rejects the training (whether outrightly or deceptively) and they go after the world, the child can't blame the parents.

Another factor I've heard preachers point out is that no parent can 100% train their children perfectly which means this verse is a principle and not a promise.

[Annie]

The way I've heard preachers explain it is something like a parent can train a child biblically but if that child rejects the training the child himself has removed himself from any aspect of promise the verse contains.

This doesn't put all the blame on the child or on the parents. It takes both. The parents are commanded to do their part but the child also has to do their part. If either fails then the child isn't truly biblicaly trained in the way he should go.

This is an interesting way to look at it. I think a child can resist training; I've seen my own children do it. Of course, I work and pray like mad to "regain their hearts," and so far I feel like I have been able to keep their hearts.

No parent who just sits back and lets his child go or perhaps enforces some biblical rules but ignores many others can rightly say they have properly trained their child and regardless of how "difficult" that child may be they can't say it's all the childs fault when they embrace the world.

In the same way, if the parents give diligent effort to properly train their child yet the child rejects the training (whether outrightly or deceptively) and they go after the world, the child can't blame the parents.

Right on, John! The blame does not rest entirely on the parents or on the child. I think you've put it better than I did.

[John81]

God does make it very clear that parents are 100% responsible to train their children to be Godly men and women. If they don't, it is not to be assumed that they would go to hell - and I never gave that indication.
God Bless,

Futurehope

If the child rejects Christ how can they be considered to be Godly? Put another way, unless the child accepts Christ how can they be considered to be Godly?

I know many folks who have high moral standards because of their upbringing but they are not Godly because they are not born again.

If a child rejects Christ then they can't be Godly and they will go to Hell. Scripture is clear on this and Scripture is clear we are each responsible for our own eternal destination.

Parents are commanded to raise their children in the fear an admonition of the Lord. Parents are to ensure their children are saturated with the Word and kept separated from the world. There is no promise that doing so will ensure ones child will accept Christ.

[Annie]

If the child rejects Christ how can they be considered to be Godly? Put another way, unless the child accepts Christ how can they be considered to be Godly?

I know many folks who have high moral standards because of their upbringing but they are not Godly because they are not born again.

If a child rejects Christ then they can't be Godly and they will go to Hell. Scripture is clear on this and Scripture is clear we are each responsible for our own eternal destination.

Parents are commanded to raise their children in the fear an admonition of the Lord. Parents are to ensure their children are saturated with the Word and kept separated from the world. There is no promise that doing so will ensure ones child will accept Christ.

John, I think Futurehope was responding to my statement about the PARENTS going to hell--assuming that they are completely responsible for the way their children turn out. My point was that the parents are not COMPLETELY responsible. If they were, then they (not the children) would bear the punishment for their children's wrongdoing.

I really do think we all agree on this topic more than we appear to. Futurehope emphasizes the parents' role, which is great if you're a parent, because you need to hear that message. John and I, while agreeing that the parents' role is important, even crucial, are seeking to temper and balance out Futurehope's emphasis by mentioning that it's really not "all up to the parent" to "do everything right" (which we all know is impossible); rather, the training process is one of both give and take, of both direction and response. Both parties (parents and child) actively participate. Just as it is up to the parents to train, it is up to the child to respond correctly (Eph. 6:1-2). It is possible for a child to go his own way despite the fact that he received good training, simply because no parent is a perfect trainer, and the child has a free will. Both parents and children are made of flesh.

[futurehope]

The way I've heard preachers explain it is something like a parent can train a child biblically but if that child rejects the training the child himself has removed himself from any aspect of promise the verse contains.

My faith does not rest in what preachers say but on the word of God and the gift of grace through His son Jesus Christ. Also, I do not take my instruction from whatever a preacher says, but, rather, from the same word of God in which my faith rests - for it is both command and promise. If a child is being trained properly, according to God's word, they will not reject the training as it would have started before they were even capable of rejecting or accepting it. I began training my children the moment they left the womb and did not wait to get my children's permission to train them.

This doesn't put all the blame on the child or on the parents. It takes both. The parents are commanded to do their part but the child also has to do their part. If either fails then the child isn't truly biblicaly trained in the way he should go.

No parent who just sits back and lets his child go or perhaps enforces some biblical rules but ignores many others can rightly say they have properly trained their child and regardless of how "difficult" that child may be they can't say it's all the childs fault when they embrace the world.

In the same way, if the parents give diligent effort to properly train their child yet the child rejects the training (whether outrightly or deceptively) and they go after the world, the child can't blame the parents.

Another factor I've heard preachers point out is that no parent can 100% train their children perfectly which means this verse is a principle and not a promise.

Again, you are quoting preachers rather than quoting the word of God. Answer this: Why would God's word say, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." if it was only true in the case that a child wants to accept the training. Again, if you start training a child from the point they leave the womb and continue according to God's word, they will not reject it. Can you, in all honesty, tell me of a situation in which the parents started the training at birth and continued according to God's word without straying (obviously, some minor mistakes are going to take place) and the child has rejected and turned from God?

[HappyChristian]

If Proverbs 22:6 is only a principle and not a promise, what is the principle? Looking at the verse, there is really only one way to take it. If children are trained right, they will turn out right. Period. *shrugs* I don't know why it's hard to see!!!

Much has been said about what preachers have pointed out. And we do need to listen to our preachers - that's why we have 'em. But again, as I stated in my earlier post, one of the reasons that Christians don't believe that Prov. 22:6 is a promise any more is because preachers changed that. Preachers whose children grew up and went to the devil and the world. The claim was that they did the best they could but their kids chose to go the other way. Nope. They were lax in their training, their kids went bad and so Prov. 22:6 is no longer a promise, but a principle (that still makes me scratch my head...what in the world would the principle be?????). And so Christian parenting began to be watered down.

And it continues to be that way (please, don't anyone take this personally...I had no particular person in mind, nor do I intend to place blame anywhere...I'm just making an observation as to how Christian parenting has changed over the years...and not always for the better!).

[John81]

What makes this verse a promise and other verses in Proverbs not promises? There are many this/that statements in Proverbs yet I don't hear anyone claiming they are all promises.

If this were a promise then it would mean parents are promised if they raise their children right they will be saved.

Since we know none of us can ever truly raise our children perfectly right, even if this were to be considered a promise, none of us would be able to fulfill it.

Speaking just from my personal experience, our oldest son rejected biblical training from early on and was never willing to accept it or be moved by it in any manner other than temporary surface appearances. Why? I still can't answer that question.

Our youngest son has been very open to biblical training? Why? I don't really have an answer for that either.

Why did Cain reject following God but Abel obeyed God?

Why, when reading of great men of God, do we find some of their children turned to Christ while others turned to the world? Why do we see this in pastors, evangelists and missionary families today?

True enough, some may raise their children somewhat differently but this isn't always the case.

Why do some children raised wickedly yet turn to Christ and others don't?

[Annie]

Do any of us? That's the point. Part of it has to be left to God through prayer. But' date=' then again, that's part of "doing things right".[/color']

Right...but again I say that I don't "do things right" all the time. I don't pray as much or as fervently as I should. I don't know anyone who can say that they do. So, how much praying do I have to do in order to ensure that I'm "doing it right?" Do you see the problem here? Nobody can take credit for how their children turn out, because it's not "because of" them that their child was saved and developed a walk with Christ. Rather, it is in spite of all the mistakes they made...It is God's grace at work.

Again, as I've posted before, I'm not saying that parents have absolutely nothing to do with the way their kids turn out. If I believed that, then I wouldn't be working so hard with my own children. All I'm saying is that God is the one who is really doing the work, as parents get themselves out of the way in surrender to His leading. There are two sides to the coin, and Proverbs 22:6 doesn't give the full picture. It doesn't take into account what other Scriptures clarify: that every person has a free will, and that all humans are made of flesh and fail more than they do right.

I'd have to join John in disagreeing with you. "Train up a child" is in the book of Proverbs (22:6). Proverbs' date=' as we know, are general truths about how life works. Take, for example, Prov. 15:1: "A soft answer turneth away wrath." Does a soft answer ALWAYS turn away wrath?

Would you say that Jesus gave a "truly soft answer" to the high priest in Matthew 26? Or did He speak grievously? Yet, His words caused those present to tear their clothes, spit in His face, mock Him and beat Him. I'd say they were still pretty angry with Him. Later, in chapter 27, we see that His simple answer (presumably soft, since Isaiah prophesied that "he opened not his mouth,") provoked a "tumult" (verses 24-25).

I know this is off topic, and we could start another thread on it if it doesn't have enough to do with this topic. You ask:

If the Proverbs don't carry absolute truth, how can they possibly be God's word???

Proverbs DO carry absolute truth. That's not the point. As we know, Scripture is made up of several genres of literature, such as narrative, poetry, parables, and proverbs. We take into account the genre of a book as we interpret it. For example, we don't think that God really has feathers and wings, or is actually a fortress or a shepherd, just because we read these things in the book of Psalms. We know that, since psalms are poetic, these descriptions are not to be taken literally, but rather are metaphors that describe aspects of God's character. (You wouldn't accuse me of thinking that the psalms don't "carry absolute truth" if I asserted that God isn't an actual, literal shepherd, would you?) The same is true for parables, which, although they come from the mouth of Christ himself, are not "true" stories, but are rather symbolic, fictional stories which carry a moral message or spiritual truth. But the "truth" is not found in taking them literally. (Again, you wouldn't accuse me of thinking that the parables don't "carry absolute truth" if I asserted that there really wasn't a nobleman who bade guests to a feast and was met with exactly the excuses mentioned, would you?) In the same way, as we consider the proverbs of Solomon, we have to ask ourselves, "What are proverbs?" The answer to that question will enable us to know how to interpret that collection of "wise sayings." We see things like, "The poor is hated even of his own neighbor: but the rich hath many friends." O.K., does that mean that all poor people are hated by their neighbors, and all rich people have many friends? I think we'd all have to answer in the negative. We understand that this is reflective of an observation made by Solomon: rich people tend to be more popular than poor people. Same with Prov. 22:6: Children tend to continue on in the way in which they were trained. But not all children do; there are obvious exceptions to this rule, just as there are exceptions to the "rich/poor" observation.

[futurehope]

Would you say that Jesus gave a "truly soft answer" to the high priest in Matthew 26? Or did He speak grievously? Yet, His words caused those present to tear their clothes, spit in His face, mock Him and beat Him. I'd say they were still pretty angry with Him. Later, in chapter 27, we see that His simple answer (presumably soft, since Isaiah prophesied that "he opened not his mouth,") provoked a "tumult" (verses 24-25).

My point precisely. Jesus wasn't applying this proverb in the 26 chapter (you made that clear in your own statement) - He wasn't trying to turn away rath. In the 27 chapter, I agree, He spoke softly and He did turn away the rath of the one who asked the question. Pilate immediately washed his hands of the matter and stated that Jesus was a just person who he would not be responsible for the death of. The "tumult" as you stated was not provoked by the answer Christ gave to Pilate, but by the hatred that the priests had for Him.

God Bless,

Futurehope

[Annie]

My point precisely. Jesus wasn't applying this proverb in the 26 chapter (you made that clear in your own statement) - He wasn't trying to turn away rath.

In the 27 chapter, I agree, He spoke softly and He did turn away the rath of the one who asked the question. Pilate immediately washed his hands of the matter and stated that Jesus was a just person who he would not be responsible for the death of. The "tumult" as you stated was not provoked by the answer Christ gave to Pilate, but by the hatred that the priests had for Him.

God Bless,

Futurehope

I think you misunderstood what I said. Jesus "opened not his mouth" before the multitude. He didn't speak "grievous words." There was nothing in his attitude or words during the whole time (ch. 26 and 27) that was "grievous." He did not argue or speak up on His own behalf. Yet, anger was not turned away.

I'm pretty sure we could go round and round on this one...but the fact of the matter is that there are more proverbs that, like Prov. 15:1, are not blanket statements of things that are 100% true all the time--because that's not what "proverbs" are. I mentioned another one in my previous post. Here's yet another one: Proverbs 16:7: "When a man's ways please the Lord, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him." So, are the missionaries who are being actively pursued and persecuted by their enemies not pleasing the Lord? We read elsewhere in Scripture that "they that live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Proverbs 16:7 is another general observation that is not true across the board for all people. That is the nature of a proverb, or wise saying. Given the nature of proverbs, I can be encouraged that if I train my child well, he will continue in the right way, since that is the natural order of things (not since Prov. 22:6 is a 100% guarantee). But there are always exceptions to "the natural order of things." Because this is true, Prov. 22:6 cannot be used to indict all parents who have wayward children. Right now I'm thinking of a couple I know well: a pastor and his wife who have raised nine children. I was able to watch them closely as they interacted with their kids over the years. They homeschooled. They had daily personal and family devotions. They disciplined wisely. Their kids were a joy to be with. All of them were under control, polite, etc., and joyfully ministered in the church. As a college-aged kid, I would press the mom especially to divulge her child-rearing wisdom. She always went straight to Scripture. I would be hard-pressed to find a more joyful, Spirit-filled family. But (you see this coming), the oldest child has broken her parents' hearts by moving in with a divorced man with children. She has "departed" from the training she received and accepted for so many years. Every single one of the other children are now adults serving the Lord faithfully. I'm thinking of another family (godly, faithful) in which the same thing is true. If I didn't know these families so well, I'd probably agree with those who would say, "Well, they didn't really train their children biblically." But they did.

[John81]

Regarding the 'speaking softly, turning away wrath' issue, I've been in countless situations where I've employed the speaking softly aspect and seen folks become even more wrathful. That's not to say speaking softly isn't a good approach or it never works for I've done so and seen it work wonderfully before too.

[HappyChristian]

What makes this verse a promise and other verses in Proverbs not promises? There are many this/that statements in Proverbs yet I don't hear anyone claiming they are all promises. Not all of them are written like promises - most of them are pithy statements of wisdom. There are some' date=' however, that are promises. Such as "He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." That's a promise to those who resist God and resist God...and anyone of us could probably give testament to the truth of this. If this verse is a principle that can be applied to our lives, then it has to be a promise. No answer was given yet as to what the principle is if it's not a promise. The principle [u']is the promise.

If this were a promise then it would mean parents are promised if they raise their children right they will be saved. Where in the verse does it address salvation? It talks about rearing children in the way they should go...children will not depart from their training. If they are trained to follow Christ, they will get saved (or don't the verses throughout scripture on God answering prayer count as promises?) If they are trained to be silent rebels, that's what they will be. If they are trained to be lazy, hateful, gossips, etc., that is what they will be.

Since we know none of us can ever truly raise our children perfectly right, even if this were to be considered a promise, none of us would be able to fulfill it. No-one said anything about perfectly right. And as one of my other posts said - that's the problem. WE think WE have to fulfill it. It is Christ working in and through us, we being odedient to the dictates of scripture and to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Speaking just from my personal experience, our oldest son rejected biblical training from early on and was never willing to accept it or be moved by it in any manner other than temporary surface appearances. Why? I still can't answer that question. John, each child is born with a different temperament and personality. Each exerts their will in a different way. Perhaps your oldest son's will was never broken? Many people cringe at the idea of breaking a child's will - but unless it is broken, it cannot be formed and molded after the Master. Perhaps that is exactly what will happen at his new school...God isn't done with him yet, he isn't old yet, and you're not done with him yet, either. Claim the promises and mercy of God, and I believe you will see miracles with your son.

Our youngest son has been very open to biblical training? Why? I don't really have an answer for that either.

Why did Cain reject following God but Abel obeyed God?
Perhaps too much emphasis was put on the act of sacrifice and not enough on the why...who knows. We need to remember, also, that there was neither law nor indwelling Holy Spirit then.
Why, when reading of great men of God, do we find some of their children turned to Christ while others turned to the world? Why do we see this in pastors, evangelists and missionary families today? For the same reason - not training their children in the way they should go. Too many people who are in full time service let their families go...I've seen it and so have you. Billy Sunday fought sin like crazy, but not in his own family. They left their kids with someone else as they traveled around for him to preach...and they lost their kids. Two of them to alcohol. Not every child will go bad due to neglect, but many will. In most of the cases of the "great" men who lost kids, that is the reason: neglect. And then the teaching of Prov. 22:6 began to change, because they had to reason away their own lack

True enough, some may raise their children somewhat differently but this isn't always the case.

Why do some children raised wickedly yet turn to Christ and others don't?God is merciful, John. Were he not, I wouldn't be here. I wasn't raised wickedly, but I certainly wasn't raised consistently being taught to love and serve the Lord. None of my siblings even attend church. I'm not tooting my horn at all - I'm tooting the Lord's. He is merciful and wonderful. And parents who lean on Him can rest in His promises to answer prayer...and to see their children saved and serving Him!!!

Let me reiterate: When we've taught our children and trained them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, I don't believe they will ever be able to get away from it. Stray? Yes. Sin? Of course!!! But GOD will reign them in, IMO. It may not be right away, but it will be. That's what I believe that Pro. 22:6 is promising. And, to me, rather than making it a hard thing, that makes it wonderful.

[futurehope]

Let me reiterate: When we've taught our children and trained them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, I don't believe they will ever be able to get away from it. Stray? Yes. Sin? Of course!!! But GOD will reign them in, IMO. It may not be right away, but it will be. That's what I believe that Pro. 22:6 is promising. And, to me, rather than making it a hard thing, that makes it wonderful.

Happy,

I was going to just let this one go and leave it be understanding that not all will believe His promises, but I just had to note what a wonderful job you did on this post.

God Bless,

Futurehope