Two questions on personal fellowship

[JerryNumbers]

One thing about it, Christians who go by the Bible rule in church, them throw its away the moment they step into the world, they're going to be so mixed up they will not know what to do where.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

We are to wear the whole amour, in church, and out of church.

Jas

[Anon]

Here's the thing...I don't think its Biblical to say "You are my best friend in the world and we do everything together even though you're a rebel."

However, I also don't think its Biblical to stick your nose up in the air and say "I can't speak to you because you are bad and I am good" (which OBviously thats not what you'd say, but its kind of the attitude too many Christians "with standards" get.)

Its something I've been thinking about in general...why do we have standards and convictions in our lives? For God? I hope. To show the world we are different? I hope. To compare ourselves to others who may not have the same beliefs? Too many times, YES but not Biblical, as God tells us not to compare...if we aren't comparing, then we aren't judging, because with whatever judgement we mete, with that also we will be judged.

How many people have said "you don't raise your kids right" only to see their own kids rebel? How many scorn a woman who got a divorce and then five years later they have their own basket of marital prOBlems?

I'm just saying that too many people take this verse WAY too far. Yeah if you have someone shacking up, you aren't going to hang out with them or be their best friend. But too many times these verses are used to castigate people who do not share the exact standards of the preacher or deacon or whoever else.

It should be somewhat rare in our churches that we would actually have to follow these Scriptures and discipline someone out of church, or keep a friendship back.

[JerryNumbers]

What have you in common with them, the unsaved? They are of the darkness, we are to be of the light.

[HappyChristian]

WELL ,scripture is clear on the fact that if (Paul wrote of this )a brother wont listen to rebuke then we should put him away from us . That does not mean putting our noses in the air when we see him on the street .
Like I saw another brother post on here AMOS 3:3 Except two be agreed they cannot walk together. I had a preacher rebuke me about that one time saying that was talking about Jesus only . I told him IT was the principle of the verse I was following ! Come to find out later the man was DEEP into Calvnism . I ended up seperating my family and I from that mess. In His name

I never advocated "putting our noses in the air" when we meet a brother or sister who has been "put away." If we do that, how in the world will we love them back to the fold? And how is our Christianity any different than the Amish?

Suzy - I agree that it should be rare that the church would have to discipline for this matter, but anymore it seems to be accepted that people are going to fornicate, and so shouldn't be judged (not talking about you!!). And yes, when we (any Christian) adopts a standard and then looks down on those who don't have the same standard, they are wrong. They are, in fact, modern day pharisees. But then we look at the other end of the spectrum and see people who have cast aside every standard in the name of love.Too often, there is no balance in our Christianity.

By the same token, if someone is not to be eaten with in church, they shouldn't be eaten with outside of church. Eating together conveys fellowship - and we aren't to fellowship with those who are blatantly thumbing their noses at God. Where is the basis for fellowship?

[Anon]

I agree HC....I'm not really advocating anything much different than accepted Baptist doctrine here of course. haha.

My only thing is the Lords Supper is a ton different than going out to Maggianos or eating Thanksgiving dinner! I may not eat the Lords Supper with my wayward brother in Christ (They prOBably won't be in church anyway...if they are disciplined...) but I might end up eating Thanksgiving dinner with them (esp if they are related to me) or going out to eat for any number of reasons.

If you are going to say "If you don't eat with them in church you shouldn't eat with them outside of church" then you'd have to apply the rules to the Lords supper to EVERY meal and you can't do that...

[HappyChristian]

I agree HC....I'm not really advocating anything much different than accepted Baptist doctrine here of course. haha.

My only thing is the Lords Supper is a ton different than going out to Maggianos or eating Thanksgiving dinner! I may not eat the Lords Supper with my wayward brother in Christ (They prOBably won't be in church anyway...if they are disciplined...) but I might end up eating Thanksgiving dinner with them (esp if they are related to me) or going out to eat for any number of reasons.

If you are going to say "If you don't eat with them in church you shouldn't eat with them outside of church" then you'd have to apply the rules to the Lords supper to EVERY meal and you can't do that...

Well, actually we have! I've had siblings who have been in fornication. One brother told me flatly that he wasn't going to "abandon" another brother because he was living with a woman, that he'd eat with him anytime. Okay, that's his decision. But let's fast forward to today: today those brothers don't even speak. But the brother who had been in sin is now married - has been for several years - per my letting him firmly (with love!) know what the Bible says...and I am basically the only one in the family he contacts (sometimes my mom but rarely). I had to make a decision regarding this with my sister as well. And I did. She got married: and a relationship that has always been rocky - and I mean from childhood - is better today than it ever has been.

Why can that not be done? Why would it be necessary to eat with someone who claims to be a Christian who is absolutely non-desirous of doing right? SWIM?

[Anon]

I do see what you mean and I know your church teaches that as well (as I heard sermons on that before haha) but I just don't agree...I mean as a blanket statement. OBviously decisions have to be made in each situation...but I don't think the Bible is necessarily telling people they can't eat dinner with a wayward brother.

I'm going to put a personal example here of what I mean...and its okay if some disagree haha...some of you have heard me speak of a good friend whose husband molested her daughter and she is now divorced. She no longer speaks to me because she wants nothing to do with her old life, and she is dating (not sure how far its going) a guy that she told me I would consider "bad". Now..if I had the chance, if she would let me (she lives in another state) to go out to dinner with her just to show her how much I still love her, and pray for her, and wish she would still be my friend...and then eventually reconsider giving God her trust again...I certainly would, and would see nothing in the Bible to tell me that would be wrong.

Now I will say I do not know that she has done anything to deserve church discipline and do not know if she is even in church. I think maybe eating with someone from MY church who was being disciplined would be kind of a bad testimony...however if the person is a relative or friend NOT from my home church, I don't see how it can be wrong, and I CAN see how it may even help.

Now if the person is just going to be cantankerous and try to lead me or my kids astray, that's another story. But if the person just needs love...I don't see how that's wrong.

Which is why I say...I think its a situation-by-situation basis...can't be a blanket statement. The only blanket statement would be that the person should be disciplined and not eat the Lords Supper under certain sins.

[HappyChristian]

I do see what you mean and I know your church teaches that as well (as I heard sermons on that before haha) but I just don't agree...I mean as a blanket statement. OBviously decisions have to be made in each situation...but I don't think the Bible is necessarily telling people they can't eat dinner with a wayward brother.

I'm going to put a personal example here of what I mean...and its okay if some disagree haha...some of you have heard me speak of a good friend whose husband molested her daughter and she is now divorced. She no longer speaks to me because she wants nothing to do with her old life, and she is dating (not sure how far its going) a guy that she told me I would consider "bad". Now..if I had the chance, if she would let me (she lives in another state) to go out to dinner with her just to show her how much I still love her, and pray for her, and wish she would still be my friend...and then eventually reconsider giving God her trust again...I certainly would, and would see nothing in the Bible to tell me that would be wrong.

Now I will say I do not know that she has done anything to deserve church discipline and do not know if she is even in church. I think maybe eating with someone from MY church who was being disciplined would be kind of a bad testimony...however if the person is a relative or friend NOT from my home church, I don't see how it can be wrong, and I CAN see how it may even help.

Now if the person is just going to be cantankerous and try to lead me or my kids astray, that's another story. But if the person just needs love...I don't see how that's wrong.

Which is why I say...I think its a situation-by-situation basis...can't be a blanket statement. The only blanket statement would be that the person should be disciplined and not eat the Lords Supper under certain sins.

I do believe that the decision is one to be made with husband and wife (which is what we did), with the hubby being the final decider, after much prayer - as far as family goes.

The picture you drew is a bit different. Your friend is the victim in a horrendous situation - and often people who go through that cast aside beliefs they had always held. That is different from someone who just decides they want to indulge in the sin and so do (which was the case with my siblings), not caring at all that they were defying God. I guess we could say that the difference would be between willful sin and hurt so strong that one doesn't know what they believe anymore.

[Reformation Man35]

1COR. 5:9-10
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one Jerry. After reading your post, your theory on setting one aside from the rest of the unsaved sounds a lot like the Essenes's during and before the days of Jesus. Who seperated themselves to the point of living like nomads. This sounds a lot like legalism. I think we overshot what Paul said in verse 10 concerning the "outside" world or the unredeemed. The verses you quoted in your last post were used in a legalistic context. No where do you mention the Spirit walk in any of it. Holiness is by no means accredited to us by the mere OBstaining from people, things, items etc. This theology was the format for the first centry Pharisees. In the world we walk by the Spirit, letting it lead and guide us. Knowing first that it all stemmed from the death of Christ. Indeed, the Spirit give us self control if we are walking in it, so that we may overcome any temptation but HE is also proactive. Leading us to share the gospel or share our faith in different ways. Whether it be doing something extra for our wives, our coworkers etc. Let me also say, that I do agree with the disciplining the unrepentant Christian. After confronting them concerning their sin and they are unrepentant, I do believe we are to do as Paul said. So don't get me confused their. Not until they are willing to repent should we let them back in the fellowship. This is my take on it thus far. I'm looking forward to discussing more. Much love. Vince

[HappyChristian]

1COR. 5:9-10
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

Vince, just a reminder that we are to post only KJV verses. Thanks. Under Board Rules, #3 says:

Feel free to quote the Bible, if you do we ask that you use the KJV. This is done to avoid confusion.
The Administrators and Moderators of this site believe that the KJV is Gods preserved Word for the English speaking people, and we ask that you respect that and use the KJV when quoting scripture.

[Tbinkley]

Here's the thing...I don't think its Biblical to say "You are my best friend in the world and we do everything together even though you're a rebel."

However, I also don't think its Biblical to stick your nose up in the air and say "I can't speak to you because you are bad and I am good" (which OBviously thats not what you'd say, but its kind of the attitude too many Christians "with standards" get.)

Its something I've been thinking about in general...why do we have standards and convictions in our lives? For God? I hope. To show the world we are different? I hope. To compare ourselves to others who may not have the same beliefs? Too many times, YES but not Biblical, as God tells us not to compare...if we aren't comparing, then we aren't judging, because with whatever judgement we mete, with that also we will be judged.

How many people have said "you don't raise your kids right" only to see their own kids rebel? How many scorn a woman who got a divorce and then five years later they have their own basket of marital prOBlems?

I'm just saying that too many people take this verse WAY too far. Yeah if you have someone shacking up, you aren't going to hang out with them or be their best friend. But too many times these verses are used to castigate people who do not share the exact standards of the preacher or deacon or whoever else.

It should be somewhat rare in our churches that we would actually have to follow these Scriptures and discipline someone out of church, or keep a friendship back.

You are speaking from MY heart now sister ! AMEN to ALL you said. I through prayer and study ,come to believe the reason for my ``confusion was simply expained by Gods Word : I.E. ,2 Tim. 2:23 ,expains my delema .
BUT ,David ClOUD JUST posted an email on ``Using Creation Science Material`` . While it sounds ``off the subject``,He made a point on the fact that we need to be discerning when talking to others about such things as creation science , etc,that could become a debate or contention,interfering with the TRUE preaching of Gods Word . Ya have to read it to appreciate it. But anyway the principle he was refering to was the same in this situation .
It really spoke to my heart !

God be with you all

[Reformation Man35]

1Co 5:9

[Tbinkley]

Vince, just a reminder that we are to post only KJV verses. Thanks. Under Board Rules, #3 says:

AMEN AMEN AND AAMEN!
Kitagrl and Happychristian , I believe what your are trying to say Paul is spelling out in 1 Cor. 5:10. I agee with you both .I sometimes think that we try to go ,as you said Happychristian,alittle to far wih seperation. Consider the fact that the Lord DOES work in mysterious ways ! From that concept I believe that He will allow a faithful believer (of which must be grounded in the Word) to have casual association with such as we speak. This could very well,through association with the Holy Spirit lead to conviction in that persons life enough to bring them back into fellowship or even lead them to Christ,if not saved to begin with! Not to lean on my own experience ,but I have seen souls won to Christ when everybody thought they were saved in the first place,out of situations like this.
In Christs Love

[JerryNumbers]

When one truly tries to walk in the path of Jesus, deny their self, and bear their cross, there will be some who will always see it as being legalist.

The Holy Scriptures be quite clear, you either agree or disagree.


2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

If you want to fellowship with unbelievers, workers of darkness, don't put down those who OBey these plain spoken verses.

But honestly, out side of trying to witness to them, trying to bring them to Christ, what have you who belong to Christ have in common with them, that is if you are going to live and stand for Christ?

Remember:

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

If your fellowshipping, being friends with, running with, bosom buddies with, the unbelievers, the infidels, your buddying up to those who are the enemies of the Cross of Christ.

Try talking about your heavenly Father, about your Savior Christ, and Christians things while your in the company of unbelievers, infidels, them see how much fellowship they will want with you.

Of course if all you do while in their company is talk about worldly things, leaving God and Christ out, they will prOBably like and enjoy your company.

Remember, they stand against everything you claim to believe by confessing Jesus as your Savior, they are the enemies of the cross of Christ.

[Anon]

HC I think if someone is truly a rebel and you are truly following God, they won't want to hang out with you anyway.

I guess in a way you have to interpret every situation individually, as I said before...I also think it matters whether the person has been disciplined from your own local church, or not.