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Kayla

Was Judas Saved?

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Who was the apostle missing when Jesus showed himself to them? I think a cursory study would show Thomas was absent.

Thomas is listed as being among the apostles present in Acts 1:13.

Matthew 27 (and other sections of scripture) are not necessarily in chronological order.

Maybe not, but Matthew 27 definitely took place before Christ ascended back into heaven, and Christ ascended before Pentecost.

The "apostles he had chosen" in Acts 1 does not then add "except Judas". Was God wrong when He inspired these words to be written?

He chose all the apostles - but did he choose them to the same purpose? Perhaps Judas was chosen to fulfill Scripture (John 17:12).

A point of logic: If Judas would have already been dead, why didn't Jesus replace him while he was here on earth?

I'm sorry, this is going to be snarky, but... because He didn't want to? Seriously, how is anyone supposed to know the answer to that question?

Quick off-topic here - I sometimes wonder whether the disciples were even supposed to replace Judas. Maybe Paul as the Apostle to the Gentiles was supposed to take that twelfth place? :twocents:

There is no scriptural reason to believe the disciples and apostles would not have accepted Judas into the fold.

Other than the fact that they considered him to be wicked man of Psalm 109? Besides, I thought in your last point you were accepting logical arguments rather then straight Scriptural proof... :frog:

If anyone could be born again, saved (in the way we can be) before Jesus' complete earthly work was done, then it was unnecessary for him to do it. The church (of the body) began on Pentecost. If the church of the body began before that, then please explain to me when that was.
When the day of Pentecost was fully come...every year there was a day of Pentecost; but after Jesus was born, lived, was sacrificed, died, was raised from the dead by God, showed himself alive to hundreds, and ascended, then the promise of the Father was given, then the holy spirit of promise, the comforter was given. Then the day of Pentecost was fully come.
Then eternal life, the guarantee of the spirit and our inheritance, the incorruptible seed, Christ in us, came to pass. That is because holy spirit was inittially given on the day of Pentecost. Before that, spirit was conditional, not permanently upon the person.

I concur that the Holy Spirit worked differently in that dispensation. However, He still worked. I could be wrong, but it seems like you're saying that no one could be saved who was not there to witness Pentecost. That's wrong! We know that there were many OT saints who were saved by faith in what the Messiah would do - God 'counting it to them for righteousness.' Of course the work of salvation was not complete until Christ rose, but people of all time have always been and always will be saved by faith. That has never changed. Now we know that the Holy Spirit works through us to completely effect our salvation - is that why you're referring to 'saved in the way we can be' and you have such an emphasis on Pentecost? Because I've honestly never before heard someone 'add' Pentecost to the gospel, and that seems to be what you're doing...

Anyways, this whole thread is about whether or not Judas was saved. We have no record in the Scripture of his repenting toward God - just that he tried to change what he had done and killed himself in despair. We do have the testimony of Jesus who referred to him as the 'son of perdition' who was 'lost' in John 17:12. The apostles considered him as the wicked man of Psalm 109.

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Considering Judas killed himself how could he have been with the apostles later?

When one considers the fact the "apostle" chosen by the 11 was never heard from again and Jesus specifically chose Saul (Paul) to be an apostle, it would seem Paul was Jesus' choice for who would take the place of Judas.

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Jesus was seen of the twelve (not eleven) after the resurrection. I Cor 15:5
Maybe all four gospels, along with Acts 1, should be worked together to give the most complete accounting of what happened, and when, with Judas? Traditions and movies are not all that reliable.

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Quick thought - when the apostles were choosing men as possible candidates to fill Judas' position, they chose men who had been with them the whole time from the baptism of John until the ascension and who had themselves been witnesses with them of Jesus' resurrection. Paul, when referring to the 'twelve', may well have been including Matthias - who was at the point of writing considered one of the twelve and had witnessed the resurrection - with that number.

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Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
The entire section, verses 3-10, are a parenthetical phrase. This can be especially seen from verses 8-10. All these events did not occur between the time Jesus was delivered to Pilate and he stood before Pilate. When did Judas see that he was condemned, and changed his mind (repented himself)?

Does anyone actually think that between the time Jesus was delivered and stood before Pilate that all these events took place??? Think about it.

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Mat 27:2

And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
Mat 27:3

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4

Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5

And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:6

And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7

And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8

Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Mat 27:9

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Mat 27:10

And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
Mat 27:11

And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

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Salyan:

I considered that, and it is to be considered. The difficulty lies with verse 17. Judas "had obtained part of this ministry". What ministry? The current ministry, not a past one. The currentministry is given by Jesus in Acts 1.

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Mat 27:2

And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
Mat 27:3

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4

Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:5

And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Mat 27:6

And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7

And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8

Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Mat 27:9

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Mat 27:10

And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
Mat 27:11

And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

Verse 4, which of course follows verse 3, clearly says that THEN, Judas did those things. It doesn't say Judas later did those things, it says it occred THEN.

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Yes, it says then. Then when? When he repented himself. When was that? Tote, the word used here, can mean at the time that, in the past or future, or in consecution.

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Okay... Judas 'when he saw he was condemned' went to the priests. Why? There are two possible reasons I can see:
1. To make atonement for his own sin in betraying innocent blood, or
2. To return the money and try to assuage his conscience by getting Jesus uncondemned. (Yes, I do know that's not a word. ;))

If #1, he could have gone at any point, possibly even after Christ was raised again. However, Judas knew the Law of God. Simply returning to the priests to verbally repent and even return the money was not sufficient. If he was trying to be purged from his sin, he needed to have followed the Law and provided the proper sacrifice. If he wanted to make atonement for his sin, this was not the correct way to do so. Judas knew the Law. He knew this. Therefore, his recorded actions do not support this hypothesis.

If #2, he must have gone before Jesus was actually put to death, or there would be no point in going. That puts this whole scenario sometime between the garden and the cross - just where God placed this parenthetical passage in the Bible.

Edited by salyan

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If that is the case, how does one look at Acts 1. The subject is "the apostles whom he (Jesus) had chosen". Then in Luke 6, the same writer of Acts, Luke says (and of course, the same author - God) there were 12 Apostles named, Judas being one of them. Except for the betrayal information, Judas is not again referred to by name in Luke.

The pronouns in Acts 1, citing the apostles whom he had chosen, are carried forward in the verses all the way to verse 11, at which point the subject changes.

Unless God changes the subject, man has no right to. God knew what He was having written. He knew the apostles from Luke 6 and Acts 1. Tradition af man disagrees with the subject and pronouns.

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If that is the case, how does one look at Acts 1. The subject is "the apostles whom he (Jesus) had chosen". Then in Luke 6, the same writer of Acts, Luke says (and of course, the same author - God) there were 12 Apostles named, Judas being one of them. Except for the betrayal information, Judas is not again referred to by name in Luke.

The pronouns in Acts 1, citing the apostles whom he had chosen, are carried forward in the verses all the way to verse 11, at which point the subject changes.

Unless God changes the subject, man has no right to. God knew what He was having written. He knew the apostles from Luke 6 and Acts 1. Tradition af man disagrees with the subject and pronouns.

Clearly, if Judas killed himself as Scripture indicates, prior to Jesus being crucified, then he was dead at the time of Acts 1. Jesus appearing to the Apostles He chose would have been the 11 remaining Apostles, the only ones who could have there.

If I say I visited my friends from school but a couple were not there because they were dead, the statement would still be true.

As we read on in Acts one we see where the Apostles went and there is a listing of those Apostles, with no mention of Judas Iscariot. This fits the previously mentioned Scripture which puts forth when Judas committed suicide.

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If that is the case, how does one look at Acts 1. The subject is "the apostles whom he (Jesus) had chosen". Then in Luke 6, the same writer of Acts, Luke says (and of course, the same author - God) there were 12 Apostles named, Judas being one of them. Except for the betrayal information, Judas is not again referred to by name in Luke.

The pronouns in Acts 1, citing the apostles whom he had chosen, are carried forward in the verses all the way to verse 11, at which point the subject changes.

Unless God changes the subject, man has no right to. God knew what He was having written. He knew the apostles from Luke 6 and Acts 1. Tradition af man disagrees with the subject and pronouns.


John has an excellent point there. Regarding all this 'subjects and prinouns' business, there are several sentences with different subjects used throughout that chapter. There are also various pronouns used: thou, he, and him referring (as we can tell by the context rather then by the individual sentence subjects) to Jesus, and thou, they, you, and ye referring to the apostles as mentioned (with one possible reference to believers in general) in the early part of the passage. There is no redefining of the definition of 'they' between verse 11 and 12. The 'they' that watched Jesus ascend were the same 'they' that returned to the room and were listed, 11 by name, NOT including Judas. There is no 'change of subject for the pronoun.' You are simply making that up.

Also, to refer to Luke 6 (which is a listing from years earlier) over Acts 1:13 (2 verses later!) seems to me to really be twisting Scripture around.

And why do you again mention traditions of men? No one is referencing traditions of men here. We're studying the exact verses to see what they say.

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Grammatically, 'the apostles' and 'men of Galilee' were the same men. Try diagramming the sentences. The 'they' at the beginning of verse is not defined by the 'men of Galilee' of verse eleven; the latter is actually the object of the third conjoined sentence in the phrase, while the former is the subject of the first sentence.

Wow, I never thought all that BJU grammar would be helpful in doctrinal debates... :frog:

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Only god knows but it is doubtfull since he committed a mortal sin in taking his own life


1 John 5:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


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Does anyone have a scripture to support this to the affirmative or negative?

John chapter 17 clears it up that Judas Iscariot was lost and was never saved.  Jesus starts off saying this in Verses 1 and 2.

 

  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

 

10,11 and 12 says this.

 

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

The Father gave Jesus power over all flesh, and because of this He should give eternal life to as many as the Father has given him.  Judas iscariot was never given that life. So he was never saved.

 

John chapter 6 Jesus left the multitude and went to Capernaum and they followed him. They asked him a question.

 

  25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

 

Jesus answered with this. 

 

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

 

Then they asked Him this.

  28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

 

Jesus said this to them.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

They go on to ask him of what sign he can show for the work he did. And He answers them, but alot couldn't understand it and left and no longer walked with Him. 

 

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Jesus then ask the twelve this question. 

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 

Peter answers. 

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 

 

Jesus then makes this statement concerning Judas Iscariot. 

 

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

 

Jesus mention earlier in verse 64 that there are some here that believed not and knew who would betray him.  Judas never believed, even though the Father gave Judas to Jesus.  In Acts 1 an apostle is appointed in place of Judas. Here is what is said of Judas keep in mind he was numbered with them and he ultimately went to his own place. I don't think Paradise or Abraham bosom isn't the place they were talking about but instead it was hell.

 

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

If you remember Jesus also signified His death and said this, in John 12.

 

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

 

When Jesus Christ was lifted up on the cross,he drew all men to him. Hense it confirmed what he said in John 17.

 

  Just another thought Judas is called the son of perdition.  There is another reference to a son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2 

 

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

 

I believe the son of perdition is the antichrist,and we know he won't be saved either because his prince is Satan, who also entered into Judas. which is another indicator that Judas wasn't saved. No born again man can be possessed by Satan or any demon, but they can be oppressed.

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