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Kayla

Was Judas Saved?

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I find it interesting how Conditional security proponents will take Matthew 13:20,21 out of context in an attempt to disprove Eternal Security. Those that bring forth "fruit" are the ones who are truly saved.

Matthew 13:20,21 - But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet HE HATH NOT ROOT in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

How can a tree bring forth fruit if it has no root? anyone who has a miniscule amount of horticultural knowledge knows that a tree CANNOT produce fruits of any kind unless it has a root. Either you're saved or you're not. You cannot be saved for a while and lose your salvation, nor can you be saved and regain it. Jesus stated in Matthew 7:21-23 to the workers of iniquity that He NEVER knew them, not knew them once upon a time until they sinned and lost their salvation. Author Dan Corner has written a book titled "Believer's Conditional Security" which is over 800 pages, and on his website shows a smiling devil who is supposedly the author of Eternal Security. Wow! a 800 page whopper that will damn many to an eternal hell because they were duped out of fear into believing that their "good works" and "commandment keeping" will merit them eternal life. Genuine believers normally keep the commandments (not perfectly) because they ARE saved, not to BE saved.

JOhn 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH (present tense) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Love,
Madeline


I wonder, how many would have thought Lot was a saved man.

Yes, by their fruit we can know them, we can know that they are not bearing the fruit of a saved person, which could be a sign that they are lost and or back slidden. I cannot read the heart, so I want say which it be.

And we can add this verse to the mix.

1Jo

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When Jesus speaks of fruits (Matt. 7:16,20), He is speaking not only of their lifestlye, but their doctrine as well. Even backslidden Christians are repentant. There are many homosexuals who believe that their lifestyle of homosexuality is not unbiblical, and they would label themselves as Christians. There are abortionists who believe that they have the "god-given" right to kill their babies and also label themselves a Christians. The RCC are even labeled as Christians by the secular world but we know full well that the vast majority are unsaved. There are going to be many professing Christians who will be rejected by Jesus on the day of judgment, and most of them are going to be Roman Catholics.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How many Catholics supposedly proclaim the Gospel? (prophesied in thy name?). How many Catholics perform exorcisms (and in thy name have cast out devils?) And how many Catholics believe that they can earn their way to heaven? (and in thy name done many wonderful works?). Yet the Lord will profess unto them that He NEVER knew them (they were never saved by GRACE).

Then there are those who use Eternal Security (OSAS) as a means to justify sinning all the want and turning the Grace of God into lasciviousness -- these were never saved by God's Grace to begin with.

Romans 6:1,2 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Those who have truly been saved by God's Grace will not continue in sin without repentance, but the Grace of God will teach them to live a godly life separate from the world.

Titus 2:11-23 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Love,
Madeline

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When Jesus speaks of fruits (Matt. 7:16,20), He is speaking not only of their lifestlye, but their doctrine as well. Even backslidden Christians are repentant. There are many homosexuals who believe that their lifestyle of homosexuality is not unbiblical, and they would label themselves as Christians. There are abortionists who believe that they have the "god-given" right to kill their babies and also label themselves a Christians. The RCC are even labeled as Christians by the secular world but we know full well that the vast majority are unsaved. There are going to be many professing Christians who will be rejected by Jesus on the day of judgment, and most of them are going to be Roman Catholics.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How many Catholics supposedly proclaim the Gospel? (prophesied in thy name?). How many Catholics perform exorcisms (and in thy name have cast out devils?) And how many Catholics believe that they can earn their way to heaven? (and in thy name done many wonderful works?). Yet the Lord will profess unto them that He NEVER knew them (they were never saved by GRACE).

Then there are those who use Eternal Security (OSAS) as a means to justify sinning all the want and turning the Grace of God into lasciviousness -- these were never saved by God's Grace to begin with.

Romans 6:1,2 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Those who have truly been saved by God's Grace will not continue in sin without repentance, but the Grace of God will teach them to live a godly life separate from the world.

Titus 2:11-23 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Love,
Madeline


So your stating, if someone is backslidden, if they die before they repent, they were not saved, because if they were saved, they would have repented?

You know, that cannot be true, for there is a sin unto death for a believer, this happens when a believe falls into sin, And God chastens him or her, and they still do not repent, and long at last God calls them hone early.

1Jo

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So your stating, if someone is backslidden, if they die before they repent, they were not saved, because if they were saved, they would have repented?



You will find absolutely nowhere in my post where I stated that a backslidden person was never saved if they were to die before the repented, and I challenge you to show me where I did. Only Christians can backslide. If you disagree with what I posted, then you disagree with the :bible:

Love,
Madeline

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I want to make this clear so you won't be a miscommunication this time. As I stated in an earlier post...even backslidden Christians are repentant. A Christian who backslides is a Christian who has allowed their once sinful lifestyle to return to their life. You cannot backslide if you were not once repentant which lead to a change of heart. Think about it.

Love,
Madeline

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You will find absolutely nowhere in my post where I stated that a backslidden person was never saved if they were to die before the repented, and I challenge you to show me where I did. Only Christians can backslide. If you disagree with what I posted, then you disagree with the :bible:

Love,
Madeline


Notice the big question mark, please!

Still I have to disagree, those believers who commit the sin unto death do not necessarily repent, that is one reason why God calls them home early, that is why they have committed the sin unto death. If they had repented, God may just spare calling them home early.

Your sure getting quite sharp, but I ask you to think about this, I'm sure feel you will see what I'm speaking of if you will study it and think it over a bit more.

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Relax Jerry...I didn't notice the BIG bolded question mark at first. :coverlaugh: I'm not arguing that God would not take a believer home early if he/she will not make an effort to turn from their sin AFTER they're saved. I wrote:

I want to make this clear so you won't be a miscommunication this time. As I stated in an earlier post...even backslidden Christians are repentant. A Christian who backslides is a Christian who has allowed their once sinful lifestyle to return to their life. You cannot backslide if you were not once repentant which lead to a change of heart. Think about it.


FAITH and REPENTANCE are two sides of the SAME coin. There's no way under heaven that you can be saved WITHOUT a change of heart, unless you can point to me in the bible where you can be saved without repentance. There has to be an initital repentance from sin. Those (believers) whom God calls home because of continual sin and lack of repentance were at one point repentant. Do this make sense to you now, Jerry? :icon_smile:

Love,
Madeline

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Notice the big question mark, please!

Still I have to disagree, those believers who commit the sin unto death do not necessarily repent, that is one reason why God calls them home early, that is why they have committed the sin unto death. If they had repented, God may just spare calling them home early.

Your sure getting quite sharp, but I ask you to think about this, I'm sure feel you will see what I'm speaking of if you will study it and think it over a bit more.


Relax Jerry...I didn't notice the BIG bolded question mark at first. Coverlaugh I'm not arguing that God would not take a believer home early if he/she will not make an effort to turn from their sin AFTER they're saved.....

I believe Scripture makes it very clear that when we are saved we become children of God - we are born again, from above - so there is no way a child of God can be lost.

However, our Christian walk is often stumbling, & getting up & pressing on. Sometimes we are discouraged, & backslide. Bad company & bad marriages, compromising work situations, etc, can all contribute. I suspect that the 'genuine' backslider will always have an awareness of his condition, & normally the Lord will reinstate him. One in that state should always be the subject of prayer, & is NOT in a state of 'sinning unto death' & so beyond prayer. Note that Samuel prayed on for Saul after he had been rejected by God.

Also I do not consider the Corinthians who contemned the Lord's supper were in that state, though they were sick & dying. ('Damnation' is judgement, not hell, in that context.)

Happily, we are not the judges - we cannot see the heart.

However, for the good of our churches & the individuals concerned, we must make a judgement - should we warn, excommunicate, publicly rebuke, separate ourselves from those in a position of authority who are teaching error? We dare not, for the sake of the Gospel, & other believers, give the benefit of doubt in such a situation. To rely on 'eternal security' of the backslider, or the 'sinner unto death' is potentially to assure such sinners that they are secure on the basis of their once commitment, rather than their continuing in the faith.

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The Bible, especially the book of John, teaches that though he was one of the 12 Apostles, he was never saved.

John 6:64-71 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 13:10-11 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:21-30 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

He rejected Christ, ended up becoming demon-possessed (literally by Satan himself) - which can never happen to someone who is saved.

Elsewhere, he is referred to as a devil, which means slanderer, accuser. He is also referred to as "the son of perdition" (which is a reference to Hell, and is the same title used for the Antichrist). He was a thief, and was covetous.

All these other things add to the picture - but John 6 quite plainly tells us he never believed in Jesus as the Messiah/Saviour.


What scripture was that in John 6?

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The way that you are applying Hebrews 10:39-39 it seems like you are trying to imply that a person could lose their salvation, which we know is not possible.
As for Judas some could say the same about Peter. He denied Jesus Christ. Would this be drawing back too? I believe that is just one of those things that we will not know until we reach heaven.

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The way that you are applying Hebrews 10:39-39 it seems like you are trying to imply that a person could lose their salvation, which we know is not possible.


I know you are quoting to the end of the chapter, but what do you think this means for those you return to deliberate sin after apparently being saved? I fear this refers to such as the woman I mentioned in an earlier post, who feigned love for the Lord until she gained her objective, & then turned against me & the church in a stream of obscenities. That is Judas.

Hbr 10:26

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Author Dan Corner has written a book titled "Believer's Conditional Security" which is over 800 pages, and on his website shows a smiling devil who is supposedly the author of Eternal Security. Wow! a 800 page whopper that will damn many to an eternal hell because they were duped out of fear into believing that their "good works" and "commandment keeping" will merit them eternal life. Genuine believers normally keep the commandments (not perfectly) because they ARE saved, not to BE saved.

I am familiar with Dan Corner's web site & arguments. I do not agree with him, but he does make many valid points. Advising Christians to live godly lives is not a dangerous doctrine. He has, however, misunderstood what we teach. [i'm not sure, though, if Jerry80871852 holds a Scriptural 'eternal security' position.]

Corner writes particularly against a concept of OSAS that allows one who has once made a profession of faith to backslide or deliberately sin to be eternally secure.

He isn't duping anyone into hell, but warning sinners & seeking to rescue hell-bound sinners who have been duped by easy believism - who believe in their salvation rather than in Christ.

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I know you are quoting to the end of the chapter, but what do you think this means for those you return to deliberate sin after apparently being saved? I fear this refers to such as the woman I mentioned in an earlier post, who feigned love for the Lord until she gained her objective, & then turned against me & the church in a stream of obscenities. That is Judas.

Hbr 10:26

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Do you believe that he was convicted of his sin and that is why he hung himself?

Judas was convicted of his sin.
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].

But if you go by the premise that anyone who willfully sins loses their salvation then you are basing your faith on your actions and not on the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary. Check out Hebrews 9 and 10 and you will see that Jesus Christ was the sacrifice for all our sins.
I don't see the verse in Hebrews as applying to Judas.

No. I go by the premise that the Heb. 10 wilfull sinner is showing he was never saved, even though he appeared to be. Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Note that Judas was exemplary in his Apostolic ministry. His colleagues did not suspect him. They did not say, "Lord, is it Judas?"

Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

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I am familiar with Dan Corner's web site & arguments. I do not agree with him, but he does make many valid points. Advising Christians to live godly lives is not a dangerous doctrine. He has, however, misunderstood what we teach. [i'm not sure, though, if Jerry80871852 holds a Scriptural 'eternal security' position.]

Corner writes particularly against a concept of OSAS that allows one who has once made a profession of faith to backslide or deliberately sin to be eternally secure.

He isn't duping anyone into hell, but warning sinners & seeking to rescue hell-bound sinners who have been duped by easy believism - who believe in their salvation rather than in Christ.


Let me make this crystal clear. I NEVER stated that Dan Corner is duping anyone into hell. Someone can inadvertantly be responsible for the damnation of souls. If someone believes that they can "earn" their way into heaven by reading Dan's book, then they are duped. I have a few friends who sincerely believe that their "good works" and "commandment keeping" is the basis for their salvation after reading Dan's book. Anyone who truly understands the true doctrine of eternal security knows the folly of easy-believism. Dan Corner believes that salvation CAN be lost and therefore is teaching another Gospel. I have listened to a debate between Dan Corner and Dave Hunt on Eternal Security. Dan Corner EXPLICITLY cites verses as prooftext for his belief in Conditional Security. Conditional Security means just that...there there are CONDITIONS that you must keep in order to secure your salvation.

Love,
Madeline

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Judas sure did seem tormented with himself after he faced the truth. I guess that's what will happen to sinners when they face God.


He did that, but still it never seems that he recognized Jesus being the Savior. only a good man who was innocent of the charges.

Joh

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God chose a nonbeliever to do and be a part of His work?


Yes, Jesus chose him, and in those days Judas must have done many wonderful works, but the fact is, doing wonderful works will not get a person into heaven, only Jesus can do that, and it seems clear that was lacking on Judas part.

Mt

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Judas was given the promise in Acts 1, because he was there at the ascension.
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Luke 6:13ff lists 12, Judas being one of them.

The pronoun doesn't change until Jesus ascends, then the angels say "Ye men of Galilee.
Judas was not a Galilean.

Since he wasn't there on the day of Pentecost (having committed what we call hari kari), he couldn't have been saved because on Pentecost was when the church of the body began, and the new birth was first made available then.

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It would have been a bit difficult for Judas to have been present at the ascension, as:
1. We read in Matthew 27 that the events of Judas' death were in motion even as Christ was sent to Pontius Pilate.
2. We have no record of Judas being in the group of apostles/disciples after the Garden of Gethsemane. Practically, if he had showed up, would they have accepted him? They saw him betray Jesus!
3. In Acts 1:13, directly after the ascension, we have a list of the apostles - there are only eleven men listed. Judas Iscariot is not included.
You can't separate Acts 1:1-10 from Acts 1:11 (ye men of Galilee). The thought flows straight through those verses without interruption.

Regarding the idea that salvation could not happen until the Spirit came at Pentecost - that's a new one on me! I don't think it's necessarily true, though. We see in John 20 that Thomas believed after he saw Christ in the flesh - was he then not born again until Pentecost? We also see in this passage that Christ imparted to those there the Holy Ghost. The church received power when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost (along with all the other services He does for the believer), but it seems a stretch to say that none could be born again until that day. How then could Jesus have told Nicodemus some years earlier that he must be born again? The Spirit was working (albeit in a different fashion) in the world before Pentecost.

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

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Who was the apostle missing when Jesus showed himself to them? I think a cursory study would show Thomas was absent.
Matthew 27 (and other sections of scripture) are not necessarily in chronological order.
The "apostles he had chosen" in Acts 1 does not then add "except Judas". Was God wrong when He inspired these words to be written?
A point of logic: If Judas would have already been dead, why didn't Jesus replace him while he was here on earth?
There is no scriptural reason to believe the disciples and apostles would not have accepted Judas into the fold.

If anyone could be born again, saved (in the way we can be) before Jesus' complete earthly work was done, then it was unnecessary for him to do it. The church (of the body) began on Pentecost.

If the church of the body began before that, then please explain to me when that was.

When the day of Pentecost was fully come...every year there was a day of Pentecost; but after Jesus was born, lived, was sacrificed, died, was raised from the dead by God, showed himself alive to hundreds, and ascended, then the promise of the Father was given, then the holy spirit of promise, the comforter was given. Then the day of Pentecost was fully come.
Then eternal life, the guarantee of the spirit and our inheritance, the incorruptible seed, Christ in us, came to pass. That is because holy spirit was inittially given on the day of Pentecost. Before that, spirit was conditional, not permanently upon the person.

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