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Kayla

Was Judas Saved?

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That's interesting - someone with the unfounded idea that a demon can be demon-possessed! That's a new one!!

Yes, a believer can "draw back" (ie. backslide), but not unto perdition/damnation.


:lol: And you thought you'd heard it all.....my husband thinks I'm hilarious when I try to explain myself, too. Well, at least somebody gets a good chuckle. :coffee2: Thanks for answering my question, too.

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That's interesting - someone with the unfounded idea that a demon can be demon-possessed! That's a new one!!

Yes, a believer can "draw back" (ie. backslide), but not unto perdition/damnation.


Hey brotherman.....
I never said a 'demon' could be demon possessed.
I just quoted what the Bible says.....

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No, you didn't - you presented a wacky view. Jesus referred to Judas as a devil in the same way He referred to Peter as Satan. Peter was an adversary to Christ in that regard and Judas was a slanderer, accuser. They were both men.

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No, you didn't - you presented a wacky view. Jesus referred to Judas as a devil in the same way He referred to Peter as Satan. Peter was an adversary to Christ in that regard and Judas was a slanderer, accuser. They were both men.


You are falsely accusing me, sir.
I have not presented any view at all and I never said Judas wasn't a man. I simply quoted what the Bible says. But you insist on throwing insults at me.

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Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible John 6:70 Verse 70. Have not I chosen you twelve? There is much emphasis in these words. Have not I--I, the Saviour, the Messiah, chosen you in mercy and in love, and therefore it will be a greater sin to betray me? Chosen. Chosen to the apostolic office; conferred on you marks of peculiar favour, and treason is therefore the greater sin. You twelve. So small a number. Out of such a multitude as follow for the loaves and fishes, it is to be expected there should be apostates; but when the number is so small, chosen in such a manner, then it becomes every one, however confident he. may be, to be on his guard and examine his heart. Is a devil. Has the spirit, the envy, the malice, and the treasonable designs of a devil. The word devil here is used in the sense of an enemy, or one hostile to him. {d} "a devil" Joh 13:27 Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible John 6:70 Have not I chosen you twelve - Have I not, in an especial manner, called you to believe in my name, and chosen you to be my disciples and the propagators of my doctrine! Nevertheless, one of you is a devil, or accuser, enlisted on the side of Satan, who was a murderer from the beginning.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
John 6:70
Have not I chosen you twelve - Have I not, in an especial manner, called you to believe in my name, and chosen you to be my disciples and the propagators of my doctrine! Nevertheless, one of you is a devil, or accuser, enlisted on the side of Satan, who was a murderer from the beginning.

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Obviously a Christian cannot lose his/her salvation, but can a Christian "draw back" but NOT unto perdition? Or is that impossible? That is why I asked what it meant to "draw back".


Yes, it is possible, it is what is commonly known as "backsliding".


I was actually thinking about Peter and his denial of Christ, but I have never really heard anyone explain well what happened with him and his relationship with the Lord at that time.


What happened was Peter discovered that the Lord was not as important to him as he had thought. He told the Lord before he denied him that he was willing to die for him and I am sure he meant it, he just didn't know his own heart as Jesus did. When Peter discovered that he didn't love the Lord as much as he had thought he had a "crisis of faith" so to speak and it changed his outlook. He went from confidently saying that he was willing to die for the Lord to a far less confident attitude when Christ asked him if he loved him after the resurrection( John 21:15-17). When Christ asks Peter if he loves him the word agapa? is used which is a strong term. Yet when Peter replies that he does love the Lord he uses the word phile? which isn't nearly as strong as the word the Lord used. Peter has become a lot more humble and is in a position to be better used of God.


There is a Bible verse that does say if we deny Christ before men that he will deny us before the Father (Matt 10:33), obviously, though Peter was saved. I find this greatly perplexing.


That verse must be balanced with this passage:

2 Timothy 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

By comparing scripture with scripture we must come to the conclusion the Christian can loose rewards and hurt his relationship with Christ by denying him in word or deed, but because Christ himself is faithful our failures cannot effect our salvation. Once we are saved the preservation of our salvation depends on his faithfulness not on ours while our rewards depend at least in part on our faithfulness to him. The parts that speak about him denying us if we deny him may well be the balance to passages like John 14:13-14 which obviously isn't the blank check it initially sounds like. In other words limited or no answered prayer and a severely limited relationship the more we are denying Christ in our lives. The closer our lives are to his the less he needs to deny us.

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Yes, it is possible, it is what is commonly known as "backsliding".




What happened was Peter discovered that the Lord was not as important to him as he had thought. He told the Lord before he denied him that he was willing to die for him and I am sure he meant it, he just didn't know his own heart as Jesus did. When Peter discovered that he didn't love the Lord as much as he had thought he had a "crisis of faith" so to speak and it changed his outlook. He went from confidently saying that he was willing to die for the Lord to a far less confident attitude when Christ asked him if he loved him after the resurrection( John 21:15-17). When Christ asks Peter if he loves him the word agapa? is used which is a strong term. Yet when Peter replies that he does love the Lord he uses the word phile? which isn't nearly as strong as the word the Lord used. Peter has become a lot more humble and is in a position to be better used of God.




That verse must be balanced with this passage:

2 Timothy 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

By comparing scripture with scripture we must come to the conclusion the Christian can loose rewards and hurt his relationship with Christ by denying him in word or deed, but because Christ himself is faithful our failures cannot effect our salvation. Once we are saved the preservation of our salvation depends on his faithfulness not on ours while our rewards depend at least in part on our faithfulness to him. The parts that speak about him denying us if we deny him may well be the balance to passages like John 14:13-14 which obviously isn't the blank check it initially sounds like. In other words limited or no answered prayer and a severely limited relationship the more we are denying Christ in our lives. The closer our lives are to his the less he needs to deny us.


Your explanation was quite helpful!

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We can only be sure of our salvation if we continue in a loving & obedient relationship with Christ.

A true believer will repent, graciously accepting correction, when his sin is pointed out. David & Peter are obvious examples. God did not allow them to continue in sin or denial.

When one we welcomed as a believer turns away from Christ, & fellowship, & rejects warning, then we must consider them unsaved & never saved. Only God knows their heart & true state, but we must discipline & not accept them as saved. We can only urge repentance.

A true believer will repent from a state of rebellion or backsliding. He dare not continuing in sin, trusting in grace or 'eternal security.' A true believer cannot be lost.

We knew one - baptised long ago & in & out of the church & other churches. She was born blind, & needed all the help we could give. Last year she was full of the Lord & wanted membership. She was a delight to be with. She also wanted to share a flat with a member of over 30 years. The week she moved in with her friend, while we were in church, she left a message on our answerphone, full of expletives & accusations. We did have a meal with her afterwards, but I was accused of praying for her restoration. We haven't seen her or the member since.

We long & pray for our lost member, but I really feel the other woman is in a Heb 10 state.

Hbr 10:26

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We can only be sure of our salvation if we continue in a loving & obedient relationship with Christ.

A true believer will repent, graciously accepting correction, when his sin is pointed out. David & Peter are obvious examples. God did not allow them to continue in sin or denial.

When one we welcomed as a believer turns away from Christ, & fellowship, & rejects warning, then we must consider them unsaved & never saved. Only God knows their heart & true state, but we must discipline & not accept them as saved. We can only urge repentance.

A true believer will repent from a state of rebellion or backsliding. He dare not continuing in sin, trusting in grace or 'eternal security.' A true believer cannot be lost.

We knew one - baptised long ago & in & out of the church & other churches. She was born blind, & needed all the help we could give. Last year she was full of the Lord & wanted membership. She was a delight to be with. She also wanted to share a flat with a member of over 30 years. The week she moved in with her friend, while we were in church, she left a message on our answerphone, full of expletives & accusations. We did have a meal with her afterwards, but I was accused of praying for her restoration. We haven't seen her or the member since.

We long & pray for our lost member, but I really feel the other woman is in a Heb 10 state.

Hbr 10:26

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I am only sure of my salvation because of God's word reassuring me that Christ died on the cross for my sin and that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and I have believed and called upon the Lord to save me.

I have no confidence in my flesh to keep me saved, sorry.....but that's just the facts.

None of us can have any confidence in the flesh. I hope you do not think that a one-off call on the name of the Lord will be sufficient for your salvationregardless of the life you then live. That is foolish presumption. If you call on the name of the Lord & live in sin, you are not saved. (I'm not accusing you or being personal.)

Rom 6:1

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None of us can have any confidence in the flesh. I hope you do not think that a one-off call on the name of the Lord will be sufficient for your salvationregardless of the life you then live. That is foolish presumption. If you call on the name of the Lord & live in sin, you are not saved. (I'm not accusing you or being personal.)

Rom 6:1

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This is the reason as to why I have a problem with the so-called "sinners prayer". There are MANY who believe that they're save and on their way to heaven because several years ago they recited a sinners prayer by repeating a rote prayer from their pastor. Little do they know...they could be on their way to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 7:16,20 - Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

If someone contintues to live a lifestyle of sin without genuine repentance, then I would question whether or not this person has truly been regenerated of the Holy Spirit. Faith AND repentance are two sides of the SAME coin.

Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Anyone can call Jesus Lord with their mouths, bu the Lord knows their hearts.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 2:14,19 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Even the devils believe, they however don't possess saving faith. They're NOT going to turn from their wickedness but follow their master the prince of this world until their alotted time in the Lake of Fire.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jude 1:4 - For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

TRUE salvation doesn't lead to antimonianism, it leads to a changed life of repentance from sin because they are a NEW creation in Christ.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The above passage speaks of those who live in such manner WITHOUT repentance will not inherit the kingdom of God. A genuine believer WILL and CAN sin, however, if there is no struggle between the flesh and the spirit...then I would question whether this person has truly been born of God.

Romans 7:18-23 - For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Too many professing Christian take John 10:27-29 out of context and believe that we can go to heaven regardless of our sinful lifestyle. On the contrary, Jesus stated otherwise:

John 10:27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them (have an intimate relationship), and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Love,
Madeline

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This is the reason as to why I have a problem with the so-called "sinners prayer". There are MANY who believe that they're save and on their way to heaven because several years ago they recited a sinners prayer by repeating a rote prayer from their pastor. Little do they know...they could be on their way to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 7:16,20 - Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

If someone contintues to live a lifestyle of sin without genuine repentance, then I would question whether or not this person has truly been regenerated of the Holy Spirit. Faith AND repentance are two sides of the SAME coin.

Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Anyone can call Jesus Lord with their mouths, bu the Lord knows their hearts.

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 2:14,19 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Even the devils believe, they however don't possess saving faith. They're NOT going to turn from their wickedness but follow their master the prince of this world until their alotted time in the Lake of Fire.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jude 1:4 - For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

TRUE salvation doesn't lead to antimonianism, it leads to a changed life of repentance from sin because they are a NEW creation in Christ.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The above passage speaks of those who live in such manner WITHOUT repentance will not inherit the kingdom of God. A genuine believer WILL and CAN sin, however, if there is no struggle between the flesh and the spirit...then I would question whether this person has truly been born of God.

Romans 7:18-23 - For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Too many professing Christian take John 10:27-29 out of context and believe that we can go to heaven regardless of our sinful lifestyle. On the contrary, Jesus stated otherwise:

John 10:27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them (have an intimate relationship), and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Love,
Madeline


The shortest sinners prayer, and its right from the Bible, yet you say you have trouble with this.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:13 (KJV)

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I cannot read mans heart, there's only One that can, and its not you.

What I do know is that when I or anyone has been saved, its not me that keeps me saved nor them who keeps their self saved, in fact there is nothing I can do to keep myself saved, but we are told in the Bible that God is able, I trust Him, how about you?

I posted verse to that effect, and yes, I know there are many who don't accept that Bible fact.

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Just a fun fact for you all, the word demon(s) is actually not in the Bible it always calls them devils. Just in case anyone asks you about demons in the Bible word searching demon will yield you nothing, that is why the Bible calls Judas a devil because he was working evil.

And concerning the other...

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

The Ethiopian Eunich repeated after Philip...does that mean that he wasn't saved?

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Jerry,

I do not doubt that those truly born again are eternally secure BUT how do you answer this question?


Do you believe that a one off "call on the name of the Lord" is salvation regardless of the deliberately sinful life one continues to live?

How do you answer the Lord, in his parable of the sower? Was this type of hearer truly saved, & eternally secure?

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

I do not doubt that those truly born again are eternally secure.

Our security is in Christ & guaranteed by him, but we cannot accept that those who once received the word with joy, & are subsequently offended, & turn from the faith they once professed, are saved or were ever saved.

I do not believe in saved unbelievers.

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A true believer will repent, graciously accepting correction, when his sin is pointed out. David & Peter are obvious examples. God did not allow them to continue in sin or denial.



While I would agree this is generally true it is not always true. Else how could you reconcile 1 Kings 15:11-14 and 2 Chronicles 16? I think it would be more accurate to say that if a believer is continuing in sin he will suffer for it because "whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth". Asa by all appearances died in sin, but it is also apparent he was being chastened for his sin.

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Just a fun fact for you all, the word demon(s) is actually not in the Bible it always calls them devils. Just in case anyone asks you about demons in the Bible word searching demon will yield you nothing, that is why the Bible calls Judas a devil because he was working evil.

And concerning the other...

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

The Ethiopian Eunich repeated after Philip...does that mean that he wasn't saved?


I could be wrong but, I don't think that qualifies as "repeat after me".....

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Just a fun fact for you all, the word demon(s) is actually not in the Bible it always calls them devils. Just in case anyone asks you about demons in the Bible word searching demon will yield you nothing, that is why the Bible calls Judas a devil because he was working evil.

There is a difference in the Greek. diabolos (slanderer) is translated devil.

daim?nes transliterats as demons, but is devils in the KJV.

Mat 4:1

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Yes I did know there was a difference in the Greek, I was just pointing out that the word demon was not in the King James. But thanks for that addition, I love looking at the Greek. I have been recently trying to learn some Greek so that I could do more study in the Greek.

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Jerry,

I do not doubt that those truly born again are eternally secure BUT how do you answer this question?


How do you answer the Lord, in his parable of the sower? Was this type of hearer truly saved, & eternally secure?

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

I do not doubt that those truly born again are eternally secure.

Our security is in Christ & guaranteed by him, but we cannot accept that those who once received the word with joy, & are subsequently offended, & turn from the faith they once professed, are saved or were ever saved.

I do not believe in saved unbelievers.


Hmm...does this describe Peter? I can't find a scripture where Peter bore fruit before he denied Christ. Did Peter receive Christ and took joy in His word but later was offended by accusation of association with Christ? However, Peter had not received the benefit the believer has today, that is, the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Peter recalled Christ's word (convicted?), wept...not just wept but, wept bitterly (repented?), however, had he actually believed:
Luke 24:45-52
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Were they now saved? I say Jesus Christ our Savior was now their Savior. Nothing would happen to them now because Christ was interceding on their behalf. They, were not at this point FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

So what do we have here?
1. Peter acknowleged Christ earnestly. (Matthew 16:16, John 21:17)
2. Peter's evidence of fruit was questionable. (No reference)
3. Peter denied Christ and wept bitterly. (Mark 14:72)
4. Peter didn't understand the scriptures. (Matthew 15:15, Luke 24:12)
5. Peter was made to understand scriptures. (Luke 24:45).
6. Peter was blessed by Christ and worshipped Him. (Luke 24:51-52)
7. Peter waited patiently and was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4)

I will have to study this more deeply!

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I find it interesting how Conditional security proponents will take Matthew 13:20,21 out of context in an attempt to disprove Eternal Security. Those that bring forth "fruit" are the ones who are truly saved.

Matthew 13:20,21 - But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet HE HATH NOT ROOT in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

How can a tree bring forth fruit if it has no root? anyone who has a miniscule amount of horticultural knowledge knows that a tree CANNOT produce fruits of any kind unless it has a root. Either you're saved or you're not. You cannot be saved for a while and lose your salvation, nor can you be saved and regain it. Jesus stated in Matthew 7:21-23 to the workers of iniquity that He NEVER knew them, not knew them once upon a time until they sinned and lost their salvation. Author Dan Corner has written a book titled "Believer's Conditional Security" which is over 800 pages, and on his website shows a smiling devil who is supposedly the author of Eternal Security. Wow! a 800 page whopper that will damn many to an eternal hell because they were duped out of fear into believing that their "good works" and "commandment keeping" will merit them eternal life. Genuine believers normally keep the commandments (not perfectly) because they ARE saved, not to BE saved.

JOhn 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH (present tense) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Love,
Madeline

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