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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
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      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

non-ifb Song of solomon discussion

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dwayner79
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I'm curious, which parts of chapter 4 are sexual?

This part?

Song of Solomon 4:1-5 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead. Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them. Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks. Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men. Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.

Because it describes her physically, it must be describing sex? That doesn't necessarily follow.


So if it does not include a exact physical desription of sex, it can't be sexual and sensual? So according to you I could tell your wife or daughter that i like the look of her breasts and it is not sexual.

Come on, of course it is intended to be sexual.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

In various places, the Bible refers to breasts in a non-sexual and non-sensual manner, such as Ezekiel 16 and the following passages:

Isaiah 66:10-11 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

JOB 21:23-24 One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.

Just because the word "breasts" is mentioned doesn't mean it is referring to sex. The context will determine what is in view - so far no one has any substantial arguments in favour of that position, other than, "Of course it is talking about sex - it is so OBvious. Why can't you see it?" What kind of proof is that? A pervert can run to any passage of the Bible and prOBably twist it to make it refer to something perverse, such as David and Jonathan's friendship - but that is bringing their bias into it. (And NO, I am not saying all people that think the Song of Solomon is sexual are perverts - though I have met some or read quotes from some that certainly were.)

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

400 years ago (plus 2600 years ago), the word "piss" OBviously was not a crude term. It means the same thing as peeing against the wall - easy to understand. What DOES your modern version say? If the Hebrew says "piss against the wall," I wonder what your version of preference says?

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Mine talks about killing all the men, which is what all the versions say, just in a cleaner way than the KJV. :frog:

When it talks about eating dung and drinking piss in Isaiah 36:12, mine says urine. Peronally, I'd rather my kids read the Bible and say, "I have to go urinate" rather than "I have to go piss." But that's just me. :wink

Like it or not, times do change.

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In various places, the Bible refers to breasts in a non-sexual and non-sensual manner, such as Ezekiel 16 and the following passages:

Isaiah 66:10-11 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

JOB 21:23-24 One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.

Just because the word "breasts" is mentioned doesn't mean it is referring to sex. The context will determine what is in view - so far no one has any substantial arguments in favour of that position, other than, "Of course it is talking about sex - it is so OBvious. Why can't you see it?" What kind of proof is that? A pervert can run to any passage of the Bible and prOBably twist it to make it refer to something perverse, such as David and Jonathan's friendship - but that is bringing their bias into it. (And NO, I am not saying all people that think the Song of Solomon is sexual are perverts - though I have met some or read quotes from some that certainly were.)


The word breast is today is not a perverted word either. No one is ashamed when they say they have breast cancer. Or breastfeeding (in fact, isn't there are verses about breastfeeding and they used the word breast? )

But the truth is, whatever distinguish a man from a woman, it will always be something attractive to a man.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Okay, but statements made by others indicate the Song of Solomon was about sex. Is it or isn't it? I am not denying that it is describing the love between the couple, the relationship, the fellowship - but no one has yet proved that it is about sex. Plus, no one has yet proved the couple is married within or prior to the song. It is an assumption being brought into it. The only related reference is to their espousal (engagement).

If they are only engaged, with the bride to be awaiting the return of the groom to take her as his wife, it is a perfect parallel in every particular to our walk with the Lord, with every parallel backed up completely by related Biblical passages. Just like the book of Revelation, the parables, and various types, every symbol has its explanation elsewhere within the Word of God (which is a safeguard to interpretation) - however, when it is made to refer to sex, somehow now there are no related passages to explain this book.


10How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!

11Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.

12A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

13Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,

14Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:

15A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.

16Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.

And who is the "garden"?
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Jerry, the reason I am saying its OBvious is because it is to me, and I would not rather press the limit on how openly I will talk about sex on an internet site. so, here is my attempt to be plain enough for you to understand, and yet "veiled enough". I hated hearing this when I was single, but some of the things listed you just don't understand unless you are having sex on a normal bases.

Son 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
Son 4:2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.
Son 4:3 Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.
Son 4:4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.
Son 4:5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.
Son 4:6 Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.
Son 4:7 Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.

In the above he starts at the top and enjoys looking at his new bride from top to bottom. Her mountain of myrrh and the hill of frankincense is a euphamism.


Son 4:8 Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards.
Son 4:9 Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
Son 4:10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!

Without being too graphic, the only question I would have is what love is better then wine? and what smell is he referring to. Again in context of her being undressed above.

Son 4:11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.
Son 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

The spring reference requires and understandinig of sex that single people often do not have or understand.

Son 4:13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
Son 4:14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
Son 4:15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
Son 4:16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.
Son 5:1 I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.

Again verse 16 talks about a wind blowing on the garden so the spices flow out. That reference is likely not understood without understanding sex. It is purposefully vague, so I will say no more. 5:1 And just like that its over. (sorry, this post needs some humor)

another way of approaching this topic is that if the book is describing passionate love between two people, this passage does not make much sense if it is not describing the wedding night. What is it describing otherwise? What is the message of the book, but to not awaken love until it is time. The woman says so throughout the book. It is her challenge before and after marriage. What love is not to be awoken until marriage? Sexual love. So the context is sexual love, why would it be describing anything else?

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6How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights!

7This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

8I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; :

Tell me; how close do you have to get to smell somebody's nose? And what is so delightful about a cluster of grapes? And how do you "take hold" of a palm tree without physical contact?

9And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak.

10I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me.

11Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages.

12Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the tender grape appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves.

And just what were these "loves"?

As I already said; it is about literal, physical married love, is poetic and beautiful, and it all has a holy, spiritual message. And who designed sex? John chapter 1 says the Lord Jesus Christ did. And what does Hebrews 13:4 say?

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Both premises are not mutually exclusive (sexual or of relating to Christ's love for His Bride). If we read the Song of Songs (the Torah) in the Hebrew, we find that Hebrew poetry is at times difficult to interpret. SOS is prOBably the most difficult book to interpret in the entire Old Testament. Regardless of where we come down on the overall interpretation, the language is filled with metaphors. To correctly interpret SOS, we have to be precise in recognizing where the choral and speaking parts begin and end. SOS is with no doubt a love song, and to fail to acknowledge and recognize this is very misleading. I believe that it is an allegory which represents Jesus' love for His bride (the church) and also ancient Israel. The depth of the love expressed in this book demonstrates just how much our Lord love us. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves of the deep and passionate love it took for the Lord to suffer the wrath of God to save us from it. The bible is filled with literal meanings that often have parallel interpretations that are metaphorical in order to help us understand the depths and riches of God's love for us.

Love,
Madeline

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In various places, the Bible refers to breasts in a non-sexual and non-sensual manner, such as Ezekiel 16 and the following passages:

True and both of your passages it is not in a sexual context. He is describing the woman in the passage and how beautiful she is. You say it is not sexual. So you would have no prOBlem with me going up to your wife or daughter and saying you have great lips, eyes, and breasts?

A pervert can run to any passage of the Bible and prOBably twist it to make it refer to something perverse, such as David and Jonathan's friendship - but that is bringing their bias into it. (And NO, I am not saying all people that think the Song of Solomon is sexual are perverts - though I have met some or read quotes from some that certainly were.)


Be honest, which one of the people here are perverts. Don't be afraid go ahead and say it. And if you say that no one here is, then why else would you say this? Could it be to make those who disagree with you more hesitant to defend their position and then be open to your hint they are then perverts?

While I do not think that Jewish tradition is for Christians, I hear that Jewish children were not taught or supposed to read SOS until they were 13 or betrothed. Is this true?
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Both premises are not mutually exclusive (sexual or of relating to Christ's love for His Bride). If we read the Song of Songs (the Torah) in the Hebrew, we find that Hebrew poetry is at times difficult to interpret. SOS is prOBably the most difficult book to interpret in the entire Old Testament. Regardless of where we come down on the overall interpretation, the language is filled with metaphors. To correctly interpret SOS, we have to be precise in recognizing where the choral and speaking parts begin and end. SOS is with no doubt a love song, and to fail to acknowledge and recognize this is very misleading. I believe that it is an allegory which represents Jesus' love for His bride (the church) and also ancient Israel. The depth of the love expressed in this book demonstrates just how much our Lord love us. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves of the deep and passionate love it took for the Lord to suffer the wrath of God to save us from it. The bible is filled with literal meanings that often have parallel interpretations that are metaphorical in order to help us understand the depths and riches of God's love for us.
Love,
Madeline

Right :thumb:
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True and both of your passages it is not in a sexual context. He is describing the woman in the passage and how beautiful she is. You say it is not sexual. So you would have no prOBlem with me going up to your wife or daughter and saying you have great lips, eyes, and breasts?


Be honest, which one of the people here are perverts. Don't be afraid go ahead and say it. And if you say that no one here is, then why else would you say this? Could it be to make those who disagree with you more hesitant to defend their position and then be open to your hint they are then perverts?

While I do not think that Jewish tradition is for Christians, I hear that Jewish children were not taught or supposed to read SOS until they were 13 or betrothed. Is this true?


According to my Bible college instructor, young men were not allowed to read it until 30 years of age.
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Just popping in to say, "Good posting, Dwayner." :thumb: I will add that it has always been amusing to me that some of the people who argue most strenuously for a "literal" interpretation of the Bible somehow make an exception for Song of Solomon, interpreting it allegorically, even though there is no justification in the text for this interpretation. (I'm not referring to anyone in here, just people I've known in real life.)


This is ironic isn't it. Dwanyer is right. The whole book is very physical yet it also is a picture of Christ and his church.
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In various places, the Bible refers to breasts in a non-sexual and non-sensual manner, such as Ezekiel 16 and the following passages:

Isaiah 66:10-11 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

JOB 21:23-24 One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. His breasts are full of milk, and his bones are moistened with marrow.

Just because the word "breasts" is mentioned doesn't mean it is referring to sex. The context will determine what is in view - so far no one has any substantial arguments in favour of that position, other than, "Of course it is talking about sex - it is so OBvious. Why can't you see it?" What kind of proof is that? A pervert can run to any passage of the Bible and prOBably twist it to make it refer to something perverse, such as David and Jonathan's friendship - but that is bringing their bias into it. (And NO, I am not saying all people that think the Song of Solomon is sexual are perverts - though I have met some or read quotes from some that certainly were.)


Two entirely different contexts here Jerry. It isn't at all to do with the use of the word "breast", but everything to do with the context. SoS is OBviously describing breasts in a sexual manner while these verses you mention are referring to the feeding and nourishing application of the breasts. Totally different and contextually accurate interpretation is key for this discussion.
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I still fail to see why it would be so terrible in some people's views (prompting them to fight to the death that it doesn't refer to sexual matters) that the incredible blessing of intimacy (physical and emotional) between a married couple could also be allegorical about God's love for Israel and Jesus' love for the Church.

Did God not create and bless this incredible union? What is so dirty or bad about it that people will not allow the plain meaning and allegory of the text to be taken as God has intended?

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I still fail to see why it would be so terrible in some people's views (prompting them to fight to the death that it doesn't refer to sexual matters) that the incredible blessing of intimacy (physical and emotional) between a married couple could also be allegorical about God's love for Israel and Jesus' love for the Church.

Did God not create and bless this incredible union? What is so dirty or bad about it that people will not allow the plain meaning and allegory of the text to be taken as God has intended?




I think because some people feel sex is purely self-pleasure (and sometime selfish). It's easier to view God as unconditional love like we receive from our own parents. It just hard to acknowledge that God is the one who invented sex. And why? who knows? Maybe SoS explains us why sex wascreated (What the world would be like if sex didn't exist? Some women would be glad to do away sex).

True story from SEVERAL people who told me personally, It's a little graphic so I won't get to details, but some people who were molested by their father do have a unhealthy love and relationship on how they view God. They have a hard time understanding unconditional love.
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I think because some people feel sex is purely self-pleasure (and sometime selfish). It's easier to view God as unconditional love like we receive from our own parents. It just hard to acknowledge that God is the one who invented sex. And why? who knows? Maybe SoS explains us why sex wascreated (What the world would be like if sex didn't exist? Some women would be glad to do away sex).

True story from SEVERAL people who told me personally, It's a little graphic so I won't get to details, but some people who were molested by their father do have a unhealthy love and relationship on how they view God. They have a hard time understanding unconditional love.


Your 100 % wrong.

Sex between the husband and wife is wonderful, but outside of it, its sin, sin is ugly, no matter what the sin is. In fact, I've already stated that. I would think you would agree with such a statement.

That said, I can respect your opinion, and the opinion of others, but not if your going to state what I put in large letters in your post towards anyone whose opinion is different than yours.

I might add, everything that is put in our mind influences our understanding of the Bible, we are living in a sex crazy world, and its having bad effect on Christians and their interpretation of the Bible.
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