Prescription medication and Sorcery

[ptwild]

That's me, the promoter of ungodliness.

No man alive is separated from error, Paul was ecumenical, and all of the Christian psychologists I know of preach the gospel. In fact, I don't know of many people who preach a "social gospel."

I don't think there was a such thing as ecumenism during Paul's time. There was only one church, so unless he was getting ecumenical with other faiths, I don't see how this could be true.

[ptwild]

You know good and well perfection was not what was meant, I don't believe for a minute that you thought Jerry was saying absolute perfection was required. What was meant was following the scriptures as best we are able and separating from those that are rejecting what the word of God says.




I guess that is why he was getting along so well with Hymenaeus and Alexander when he mentions them 1 Timothy 1:19-20.

Your beliefs have no effect on reality. And what you man above is "separating from those that are rejecting what I interpret the word of God to say."

[Rachel]

I've been reading through the posts and would like to state a couple of things. First, I think the study of human behavior is fine for the courtroom or anywhere else. And I think those little personality tests are so cute and fun. I didn't realize that was what you meant by Christian psychology. I don't even have any trouble with Christians writing books about those issues; I think they're quite fascinating, kevin.

However, the subject of medication is personal to me because I once OBserved a teenage girl in my classrom stab another girl in the side of the head. I later learned that she had been on psychotropic medication and the doctor had recenty weaned her off of it. I will never forget what I saw that day, and I'm convinced it was the medication that ruined her life for her (she's now in the pen) I wish everyone could know how serious those drugs can be, especially for kids.

I can't explain everything here, but please consider the following facts:
1. Prozac is the only antidepressant approved by the FDA for use in children. All others are being prescribed "off-label." (they are being tested on children, basically)
2. Psychotropic drugs began to be widely prescribed for children about twenty years ago. So only recently we learned that the long-term effects of the first introduced drugs included involuntary jerky movements years later, which is why the pharmas are working feverishly to develop better (but more experimental) drugs
3. "Chemical restraint" is the latest rage in the foster care system. In addition, over 50% of teenagers in some if not all states are taking at least one form of mind-altering medication while in foster care.
4. No studies have yet successfully countered the major controlled study that showed that depressed teenagers given antidepressants were twice as likely to consider suicide as depressed teenagers given placebos. the "Black box warning" resulted from this study.
5. Even though therapy has been proven to be more successful, and many professionals believe medication should only be given in conjunction with therapy, it is more often given without any other form of treatment.
6. Most psychotropic drugs are addictive. However, researchers avoid this one by saying the drugs cause dependence, which is vastly different from addiction (according to one doctor, addiction involves lying and stealing, whereas dependence is actually a good thing, especially if they need the medication).
7. The latest thing is the outrageous notion that catching these diseases early is necessary to prevent the child's condition from worsening. Thus, an increasing number of children under 6 years old are being given psychotropic medication although we have no idea what the long-term effects will be!
8. Recent studies prove that long-term use of Ritalin permanently changes parts of the brain

The notion that the mind is a physical entity that psychiatrists/ psychologists/ scientists/ whatever can begin to treat with medication is dangerous. It has brought us to the point of experimenting on our children's minds with the same vigor we have used in trying new treatments for physical prOBlems such as asthma. And what really bothers me about this is that the children are often perfectly healthy before their treatment begins; they are just hurting or lacking discipline. In the case of the foster care children, they are often torn from their families for reasons they don't understand and then suddenly diagnosed with a disorder, when the real disorder is their pain and confusion.

I don't care what psychology is, and honestly, I don't care what you want to believe about Freud and Darwin and all the rest of the pioneers, I just know that we shouldn't put our confidence in something with a shaky humanistic foundation. It's humanism that has brought us to the point of treating our children like--pardon the word--mindless animals.

[Psalms18_28]

My sisters can't handle well on anti-depression medicine at all. I would tell you but for their privacy,
All I can say that they did alot better when they weren't on it.

but their situation was situation depression. They just needed some counseling and therapy, nothing more. And that's what is working for them right now.

[Psalms18_28]

it is possible this girl was out of control that they had put her on it in the first place. Although I do think possible people who get weaned off get extremely violent than they were before. I discovered that most people who killed people were weaned off of their medications. including some school shootings.

Anyone who are being weaned off need to be taken to a clinic to be watched. Or need to stay on it for life.

[kevinmiller]

You know good and well perfection was not what was meant, I don't believe for a minute that you thought Jerry was saying absolute perfection was required. What was meant was following the scriptures as best we are able and separating from those that are rejecting what the word of God says.




I guess that is why he was getting along so well with Hymenaeus and Alexander when he mentions them 1 Timothy 1:19-20.

You mean your interpretation of what the Word of God says.

1 Timothy 1:20 - Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

He is talking about the unsaved here or, at the very least, someone who has turned their back on God completely. However, when it came to Christians, Paul fellowshipped with people who had all kind of messed up doctrine. Apparently, he even fellowshipped with charismatics because he had to address the issue in Corinthians. Paul never separated from Christians who had doctrinal errors and a LOT of the NT churches had doctrinal errors of all different varieties.

[kevinmiller]

I agree with you Rachel in that most drugs are unnecessary and over-prescribed. I think a lot of kids need a good spanking and some time away from their xbox to fix what Ritalin is supposed to. I think drugs can and are dangerous a lot of the time. I would never argue against that. I'm not a big fan of medicines either.

[Rachel]

Unfortunately, once some children are medicated for so long, they prOBably won't function properly without it. The best thing is for them not to take it to begin with.

[1Timothy115]

Happy: With all due respect, if you don't have a doctorate in something, you don't have the knowledge of it required to be considered an expert and, therefore, have no business pontificating on it. Reading a few articles on wikipedia simply does not suffice.

Psychology is a legitimate science with proven results. There is nothing to debate on that front. Further, OBjecting to something merely because non-Christians promote it will result in you OBjecting to everything from french fries to the moon.

Wading in where angels... Yes, legitimate homosexuals (its a lifestyle preference!) and soon to be legitimate pedophiles (just another lifestyle preference). Or, as some psychologists insist they are both natural human dispositions to be accepted into society. Would you agree? Well, if you don't then your psychosis can be treated by drugs.

[JerryNumbers]

I've been reading through the posts and would like to state a couple of things. First, I think the study of human behavior is fine for the courtroom or anywhere else. And I think those little personality tests are so cute and fun. I didn't realize that was what you meant by Christian psychology. I don't even have any trouble with Christians writing books about those issues; I think they're quite fascinating, kevin.

However, the subject of medication is personal to me because I once OBserved a teenage girl in my classrom stab another girl in the side of the head. I later learned that she had been on psychotropic medication and the doctor had recenty weaned her off of it. I will never forget what I saw that day, and I'm convinced it was the medication that ruined her life for her (she's now in the pen) I wish everyone could know how serious those drugs can be, especially for kids.

I can't explain everything here, but please consider the following facts:
1. Prozac is the only antidepressant approved by the FDA for use in children. All others are being prescribed "off-label." (they are being tested on children, basically)
2. Psychotropic drugs began to be widely prescribed for children about twenty years ago. So only recently we learned that the long-term effects of the first introduced drugs included involuntary jerky movements years later, which is why the pharmas are working feverishly to develop better (but more experimental) drugs
3. "Chemical restraint" is the latest rage in the foster care system. In addition, over 50% of teenagers in some if not all states are taking at least one form of mind-altering medication while in foster care.
4. No studies have yet successfully countered the major controlled study that showed that depressed teenagers given antidepressants were twice as likely to consider suicide as depressed teenagers given placebos. the "Black box warning" resulted from this study.
5. Even though therapy has been proven to be more successful, and many professionals believe medication should only be given in conjunction with therapy, it is more often given without any other form of treatment.
6. Most psychotropic drugs are addictive. However, researchers avoid this one by saying the drugs cause dependence, which is vastly different from addiction (according to one doctor, addiction involves lying and stealing, whereas dependence is actually a good thing, especially if they need the medication).
7. The latest thing is the outrageous notion that catching these diseases early is necessary to prevent the child's condition from worsening. Thus, an increasing number of children under 6 years old are being given psychotropic medication although we have no idea what the long-term effects will be!
8. Recent studies prove that long-term use of Ritalin permanently changes parts of the brain

The notion that the mind is a physical entity that psychiatrists/ psychologists/ scientists/ whatever can begin to treat with medication is dangerous. It has brought us to the point of experimenting on our children's minds with the same vigor we have used in trying new treatments for physical prOBlems such as asthma. And what really bothers me about this is that the children are often perfectly healthy before their treatment begins; they are just hurting or lacking discipline. In the case of the foster care children, they are often torn from their families for reasons they don't understand and then suddenly diagnosed with a disorder, when the real disorder is their pain and confusion.

I don't care what psychology is, and honestly, I don't care what you want to believe about Freud and Darwin and all the rest of the pioneers, I just know that we shouldn't put our confidence in something with a shaky humanistic foundation. It's humanism that has brought us to the point of treating our children like--pardon the word--mindless animals.

I agree, we are to free in trying to cure every prOBlem with a pill, now we have many prOBlem in people caused by the pills. Especially in those who have not their parents for what ever reason and have been placed in foster care with the Department of Human service dictating their care.

[His by Grace]

Homosexuals and pedophiles as a lifestle preferance or just born that way?? Where are we going with this discussion? Psycologist that are true "Christian's" don't believe this!! His Word is their final authority so these are sins just as the LORD says! Where I'm confused is when there IS physical evidence in the brain that there is a prOBlem. Would most Christian's on OB NOT believe it is scriptural for these patient's to be put on medication's to help them function?? These diseases affect people physically as well as mentally in most cases. I think this would be a surprise to most people. The medication's cause affects on the brain which in turn ceases some bodily movement issue's but let's make no mistake the medication must go thru the blood/brain barrier to be effective. Would you consider this type of treatment given by neurologist to be "unchristian or unholy"? Deep down, how do you see these people? posessed? Question their salvation? Be honest with yourself!These are your Grandparent's with Alztimeers (please overlook my spelling!), these are young onset (people only 30's or 40's) with parkinson's disease, these are mom's in your church with MS, children with Epilepsy. I have just named a few!! There are medical facts, shown physically in the brain. Is this different in these cases to take "mind altering" medication's or drug's as some have referred to them? Let's stop discussing disapline, agreeing with Darwin (of course not!!!) and personality types. Let's talk about where the rubber meets the road! If your husband couldn't stop himself from being thrown back over and over and over, slurred his speach, couldn't swollow, shook when at rest -let's just say on one side! Of course, as a result, couldn't walk! BUT if he was diagnosised and given the correct medication's in the proper doses and all of this just about magically stopped. There would be good day's and bad day's of course. He would be followed by a neurologist on a regular basis of course. Would these be those "brain altering drug's " your against or would these be acceptable?? Whatever your answer please explain why you answer the way you decide. Some people will say there is no psycology involved here and I would respond you need to do some research. Being up-frount with that information. Would you be open to these medication's for your spouse? How about your child? Be honest, what if this were you?? Just alittle something to cause use of these brain's He has blessed us with today. How will they work next year?? There by the Grace of God we walk daily!! Trusting in Christ Only, His by Grace

[Seth Doty]

You mean your interpretation of what the Word of God says.

1 Timothy 1:20 - Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

He is talking about the unsaved here or, at the very least, someone who has turned their back on God completely. However, when it came to Christians, Paul fellowshipped with people who had all kind of messed up doctrine.

We see that later in 2nd Timothy Paul mentions Hymenaeus again, clearly showing that that man was teaching false doctrine and drawing away some Christians after him. He was a professing believer with false teachings and Paul separated from him. "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Exactly why we separate from denominations teaching infant baptism, compromise with sin, the unbiblical practice of tongues(if any practiced it in a biblical fashion that would be one thing, but they don't) etc.

"2 Timothy 2:17-19 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Ok, thread unhijacked.

[Anon]

Seems like alot of pages for a simple subject. Witchcraft often involved mind altering drugs (people who are strung out on drugs like LSD also have demonic experiences often). Sometimes in their spells they used drugs/herbs as well. So since witchcraft used assorted drugs, the word was "pharmacoia"....and from that word we get "pharmacy" meaning drugs.

However since we are not using drugs to worship the devil, then its not the same thing...although we should be careful about mind altering drugs because that's when you start toeing the line.

[ptwild]

Seems like alot of pages for a simple subject. Witchcraft often involved mind altering drugs (people who are strung out on drugs like LSD also have demonic experiences often). Sometimes in their spells they used drugs/herbs as well. So since witchcraft used assorted drugs, the word was "pharmacoia"....and from that word we get "pharmacy" meaning drugs.

However since we are not using drugs to worship the devil, then its not the same thing...although we should be careful about mind altering drugs because that's when you start toeing the line.

Please provide a citation for this assertion.

[Psalms18_28]

here are some link I like to throw in:

Hallucinogenic substances are among the oldest drugs used by human kind, as hallucinogenic substances naturally occur in mushrooms, cacti and a variety of other plants. Numerous cultures worldwide have endorsed the use of hallucinogens in medicine, religion and recreation, to varying extents, while some cultures have regulated or outright prohibited their use. In most developed countries today, the possession of many hallucinogens, even those found commonly in nature, is considered a crime punishable by fines, imprisonment or even death. In some countries, such as the United States and the Netherlands, partial deference may be granted to traditional religious use by members of indigenous ethnic minorities such as the Native American Church and the Santo Daime Church. Recently the Uni