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    • I was taught, in church, that the reason that a family is out of order is solely the man's fault for not "leading". it was also taught, and still is, that if the husband will just "lead" the wife will "follow" and everything will be Ok, But common sense itself should tell anyone that isn't always the case.  Under this teaching, the ladies were given flowers and praised for being great moms on Mother's Day, but whenever father's day rolled around the men were always castigated. After these sermons you left with a helpless feeling that, because of all the innate shortcomings of church-men. the only "real man" in the house was the pastor. Consequently I've also known wives to say things like "I'll submit when my husband learns to lead". That kind of attitude is certainly not what the Lord intended ladies to have but you can't place too much blame on them when they're hearing teaching which is nowhere to be found in the Bible.  Paul, and Peter, on the other hand addressed BOTH genders in the same message and there was a reason for this. Even women are commanded  to "lead". How so? Notice the next verse;     If that is not "leading" I don't know what is. So, instead of having an attitude like "I'll submit to my 'hubby' when he mans-up and leads", the Bible plainly tells women to "submit" anyway. Are men ignorant or just afraid to preach this? And while we're on submission, I don't recall ever hearing anyone expounding much on stuff like 1 Corinthians 7:3-5. Wow! That one passage could save alot of marriages in this sad, wretched world. I know people have to want to change, but they need the whole counsel of God. Love feeds off of love. How? Wife submits to the husband and makes him want to love and honour her, conversely, the husband loves and honours the wife and makes her want to submit. If that cycle is broken, it's not time to quit. Fix it by doing your part anyway instead of sitting back and saying I'll do mine when they do theirs. What's the title to this topic. Oh yeah, effeminate men, I'll get back to that. 🙂 The World demeans men and manliness every day and I've often wondered; has this hateful world taken away so much of the joy and honour of being a man, that it no longer appeals to many males? I'm not condoning effeminacy or anything; just an observation. But Christians are not to be like the World are we? No, we're supposed to build each other up, instead of tearing each other down. .God loves that.  BTW, Our eldest son, just took our grandson to Kentucky last weekend on a deer hunt. At 11 years old he got his first deer with a crossbow, and 3 more with a rifle. Man-stuff. 🙂
    • Wow!  I was out for the whole day, and while I was gone this thread discussion exploded a bit. Brother Paul Christian, Throughout this thread discussion you have now said some things with which I have hearty agreement.  However, you have also said some things with which I would have definite disagreement.  Now, I do not present that in order to "stir the pot" in anyway, and I do not have any spirit of animosity.  I had been pondering over the weekend whether to engage some of the earlier points of disagreement.  However, I am now leaning away from doing so simply because so much conversation has proceeded.
    • A church only has authority over what happens in church, but screwed up people tend to get better when the church does it's job. I disagree with marriage counselling in the church, because everybody has a bible, and it doesn't take long to point out the verses that should be sounded from the pulpit. They will either obey the bible or not. I have seen many defeated men in churches over the years. Their wives like to say that they had to take control because their husbands won't. The reality was that the woman would end the marriage if the husband stepped up. I've seen the women leave as well. When God doesn't allow remarriage while the spouse is alive, the men are faced with being defeated in their home, or being single until she dies. A man cannot assert his authority when the wife is not in obedience to God. He can only pray and wait. I've seen pastors get deep into people's personal lives in the process of marriage counselling, and because they would not preach and teach hard on God's family structure, it ended poorly, and with the church leadership stepping into the marriage where they ought not, even counselling the wife separately. I looked at it like the church leadership was committing spiritual adultery with another man's wife, because the man is the head of his wife, not leaders in the church. This was a non-denom church, but I'm sure baptists are not immune.  I am remarried, and I know what it was now to remarry now, but I am blessed with a Godly wife and a life lacking the strife that I have seen and endured, and it is undeniably due to hard, biblical  preaching, and having a common purpose in life that is well defined.  I've seen women lead their husbands out of church when they heard things that they didn't like as well. You can mark that man as defeated. 
    • What goes wrong, in a church setting, is when some let the "fear and honour" turn in to "control".
    • "fear to whom fear, and honour to whom honour". I should have read the chapter I quoted. 

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