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    • 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Whatever you may think these verses say, the verbage is clear that God did something to them. The references are proactive on God's part. It is quite clear in vs 28 that God did something to their mind, and if we use the bible to define it, we have to go to Jeremiah 6:30, which is the first use of the word "reprobate' in the bible.  Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them. Apparently, when God rejects someone, their mind becomes "reprobate", and results in them doing things which are not convenient, unclean, vile, and against nature. Men with men is against nature, just as the women leaving the natural use of the man is. God also makes reprobates out of people who change His word, take the mark of and worship the beast, and the people of Hebrews 6:4-6. We have examples such as with Moses and the pharaoh. Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and then God hardened his heart.  Homosexuality is not a sin that is common to man. It is an unnatural sin that occurs only after God does something to them. It appears that God removes whatever separates people from the natural and unnatural. The NT warns saved people about indulging in the lusts of the flesh, and of this world, but I don't believe that God gives saved people over to, or up to, unnatural, vile, unclean, and inconvenient lusts, as He did in Romans 1, for his seed remaineth in us. Neither do I believe that God does this to people that are not Hebrews 6:4-6 people.  Romans 1 says "when they knew God". These people have already tasted of the heavenly gift. God made himself known to them, and they are without excuse. Their choices caused their foolish hearts to be darkened just like Pharaoh did. Unless someone can show me some scripture that says these people can be saved, I just can't buy it. 
    • The non-elect lady.......  sorry 😉
    • Wait a minute. God didn't "make them that way". The Bible says God "gave them up" unto vile affections and "gave them up" to uncleanness. They were the ones who made themselves that way. Sinners can reach a point where God "gives them up" BECAUSE....they didn't like to retain God in their knowledge. In other words, one can keep on rejecting God until the Holy Ghost stops pleading with their heart,. But I don't see what you're getting at here. We have no way of knowing which homosexuals, or "trannys' God has "given up", so, from our perspective they have a soul that can still be saved.
    • Alan, what would you have done if you were not ordained?  Most here would say it would not be a NT church unless you had an ordained pastor involved.  But something is better than nothing.  On the other hand,  some would say that those not following the NT model in every particular are on the path to perdition. But maybe not.  Maybe a lay person could start an independent Baptist home church that is not fully IAW the NT model.  Taking an idea from another topic thread, lay people can baptize in a pinch.  Besides, ordination is not an ordinance.  Ordination is an example to follow but it should not be done willy nilly to every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to carry out the Great Commission.    

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